Honda leaving F1.

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ringo
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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Hydrogen is compressible..
For Sure!!

Rodak
Rodak
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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Yeah, it is. I'm not sure if you're joking or not, but assuming you aren't.... The power density of liquid hydrogen is much greater than the gas; I'm sure you can guess why; it's a liquid, not a gas. Having racing cars driving around with tanks of 5000 psi hydrogen gas just seems so safe. Have you ever moved a tank of compressed gas around? Sure, they could make carbon fiber wound tanks, but do some volume calculations and see how big they would have to be to go 300 kilometers - this is F1 Technical after all.

Edited to add: It takes about 34% of the available energy in liquid hydrogen to compress and chill it to a liquid from room temperature, so there's a bit of a negative factor for environmental friendliness; that's electricity that has to be generated just to make the liquid. Then add in that hydrogen is made from methane (natural gas) by a steam process. Hydrogen isn't as eco friendly as you might think.... Let's not even mention electrolysis and electricity usage.

anthonyfa18
anthonyfa18
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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I am just heart broken, do u think redbull can find a way to keep honda in the sport just like in the 90’s and run as a mugen honda , pleas honda come back or I will leave the sport in 2021 also

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Schippke
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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rogazilla wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 6:12 pm
they could have just say '100 kg' of fuel per race. Now go and build a PU. Then if you want to improve the efficiency just say every season the allowed fuel is 5kg less. I think that'd attract a lot of engine makers to jump in?
In theory, this sounds great... had not all the current engine manufactures invested so many billions into their current power units. They'd all just keep running with what they already have and optimise accordingly.

5kg less fuel a year would be next to impossible to achieve going forward as well... especially with current technology. Also, imagine the ruling and limitations in order to try and police that with several different type of potential engine variants.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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Rodak wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 3:09 am
Yeah, it is. I'm not sure if you're joking or not, but assuming you aren't.... The power density of liquid hydrogen is much greater than the gas; I'm sure you can guess why; it's a liquid, not a gas. Having racing cars driving around with tanks of 5000 psi hydrogen gas just seems so safe. Have you ever moved a tank of compressed gas around? Sure, they could make carbon fiber wound tanks, but do some volume calculations and see how big they would have to be to go 300 kilometers - this is F1 Technical after all.

Edited to add: It takes about 34% of the available energy in liquid hydrogen to compress and chill it to a liquid from room temperature, so there's a bit of a negative factor for environmental friendliness; that's electricity that has to be generated just to make the liquid. Then add in that hydrogen is made from methane (natural gas) by a steam process. Hydrogen isn't as eco friendly as you might think.... Let's not even mention electrolysis and electricity usage.
Batteries are also unfriendly to the environment right now, but there is a big battery push to get over the sustainability hump.

I cannot answer your question about the hype around hydrogen but the car companies see something that we don't I guess.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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anthonyfa18 wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 3:27 am
I am just heart broken, do u think redbull can find a way to keep honda in the sport just like in the 90’s and run as a mugen honda , pleas honda come back or I will leave the sport in 2021 also
If RedBull can pay for it..but Honda will not be interested in training another set of engineers, and use of floor space to service another engine program. The design of the engine is also very sensitive information, so I think Honda will not sell that IP any time soon.

It is too costly for RedBull to buy space for an engine lab in Japan, handle supply chain and pay Honda to train engineers to run it. Probably tens of millions. It is easier and less costly to just pay Renault the 12 million per year (I am not sure if it is per car or for both cars) , re-badge as TAG again and call it a day.
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Scorpaguy
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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Will, make a prediction now...RB will not use Renault engines...or to phrase more properly, Cyril will not make a deal with Marko. Karma.

aran.vtec
aran.vtec
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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really sad news i only started watching f1 again cause honda was returning.

but something i find interesting the concord agreement was signed about a month ago? and we can assume honda didn’t decide this over night? surely redbull would of had an idea they would be engine less before signing the concord.

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JordanMugen
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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Schuttelberg wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 6:37 pm
This is terrible news. People are rejoicing about Red Bull being in a soup but they could follow Honda. This also means that 2021 is a foregone conclusion and perhaps even 2022 and beyond.
If Red Bull went off and made their own series with 3.9L Cosworth V12 engines (as if Matechtiz and Marko give a stuff about the environment or road relevance!) it would be wonderful IMO... There would be drives not just for Verstappen, Albon, Gasly & Hulkenberg but also Kvyat, Hartley, Vips, Tsunoda, Kubica, Magnussen... all the Red Bull old-timers & others with budget would be welcome, and as we have seen, tracks like Imola and Portimao are more than willing to host Grand Prixs!

Teams like Carlin, Arden et al. would be delighted to finally be able to afford to upgrade to affordable world class Grand Prix racing using a spec Red Bull - Cosworth car without the absurd costs of Formula One!

Unfortunately, Red Bull have already signed the Concorde agreement. :cry:
However, they have the right to withdraw any season they want... The plot thickens! :D

Restomaniac
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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Manoah2u wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 10:12 pm
Tag Heuer back.........
No way will Renault allow RedBull to rebrand to semi-hide that Renault badge again.

They are well past doing RedBull favours.

hurril
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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Ugh. Honda is a very very large reason that I watch F1 in the first place.

Bill
Bill
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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Honda pulling the plug on f1 does not surprise me.Rbr has systematically blamed Honda for under performance the last race they were allegedly loosing 0.6 tenth on straight which is bullshit ferrari with worst pu doesn't lose that much and Max on hard tires was competitive.
Honda came into season expecting champ fight not to be slower than last year car and Mercedes copy .they won with alpha in monza of all places the pu is there.
Fia was stupid in not including pu manu in revenue share and constantly changing rules has killed Rbr competitiveness the chickens have come home to roost.

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Schuttelberg
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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zeph wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 9:22 pm
Sweet revenge: RBR knocking on Renault’s door with their tails firmly tucked between their legs.
What revenge? Just because Renault make engines? They've not won a race with anyone else bar RedBull in the hybrid era and RedBull have gone and won races with Honda.

This current situation actually shows how bad F1's current state is. Engine manufacturers have too much power and the formula is so complicated that no new manufacturer wants to enter and have their hands burned.

RedBull will pack up and leave at this rate. We will lose 2 teams and a brand that has given us the most exciting driving talent of the last decade in Vettel, Ricciardo, Sainz, Verstappen etc. Hell, even their rejected lot are achieving success in other formula's.

I just don't get why people are rejoicing. This is a sad moment for the sport.
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raymondu999
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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Maybe with the vacated Aston Martin space at the RBTech facilities, and with purchased Honda IP, and a Mr. Andy Cowell is a free agent.

It is 2020, after all.

I have heard that RB knew a month before the public about this decision, and perhaps the silence indicates they are exploring “out of the box” alternatives?
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Big Tea
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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Edax wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 1:05 am
Here’s a thought. Mercedes has been rumored to sell their F1 team.

I doubt that deal would include engine dev. That is too close to Merc core technology. Not having a team affiliated to their name would mean they can be less picky about who they supply to.

Mercedes now supplies to 3 teams, 4 next year. 5 and 6 have just become available.

The step to a semi-spec series based around a single engine has suddenly become very small.
I just had an image of steam blowing the windows out at Ferrari HQ when they read that :twisted:
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