Hydrogen Fuelcell Formula

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
NL_Fer
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Hydrogen Fuelcell Formula

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A battery powered EV with f1 performance levels, will weight over 1500kg. The need about 5-6 times kwh, than current Formula E cars.

A hydrogen car is much lighter. Could a fuelcell power the next generation F1 car?

Ineos is a Chemical company, but they also invest in Fuelcell technology. Could this be the secret?

notsofast
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Re: Hydrogen Fuelcell Formula

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I don't know if this is in any way relevant to this discussion: hydrogen-powered trains are being deployed in the UK and other European countries. For example:

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/business-54350046

Rodak
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Re: Hydrogen Fuelcell Formula

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I think fuel cell racing is a non-starter. Hydrogen fuel cells are about 60% efficient in converting potential fuel energy to electricity; the equivalent energy to gasoline of liquid hydrogen is about four times the volume of gasoline, meaning very large tanks. Liquid hydrogen is a cryogenic liquid at a temperature of -252° C ± and must be heated to drive off gaseous hydrogen; this means a pressure tank as well as a cryogenic tank.

Bottom line, the liquid hydrogen energy equivalent of 100 kg of gasoline would be about 300 liters of hydrogen at -252° C. Since the current F1 engines approach 50% efficiency and fuel cells are about 60%... On the plus side, 300 liters of LH2 would mass about 21 kg.

NL_Fer
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Re: Hydrogen Fuelcell Formula

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Maybe the manufacturers are not interested, but the Fia could procure a standard fuelcell and the manufacturers could develop the electric driveline.

Rodak
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Re: Hydrogen Fuelcell Formula

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If you want to go 'greener' how about an ethanol fuel cell? I honestly think this sort of stuff is not suitable for racing, except maybe slowly.

Seriously, this is F1 technical. Run some numbers and calculate weight/volume of a fuel cell to provide electricity to run a race car at speed and the volume/weight of fuel tanks and fuel. Do you want to constantly generate electricity and store some of the power in batteries for instant use or do you want total driving power from the cell? How fast do you want to go? I've given some guidance above, do some calculations.

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henry
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Re: Hydrogen Fuelcell Formula

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Rodak wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 2:51 am
If you want to go 'greener' how about an ethanol fuel cell? I honestly think this sort of stuff is not suitable for racing, except maybe slowly.

Seriously, this is F1 technical. Run some numbers and calculate weight/volume of a fuel cell to provide electricity to run a race car at speed and the volume/weight of fuel tanks and fuel. Do you want to constantly generate electricity and store some of the power in batteries for instant use or do you want total driving power from the cell? How fast do you want to go? I've given some guidance above, do some calculations.
I, for one, would be interested in your estimation on the size/weight of a fuel cell.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

Rodak
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Re: Hydrogen Fuelcell Formula

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From https://energypost.eu/the-lowdown-on-hy ... portation/
From Toyota’s product sheet for the Mirai, the fuel cell system delivers 2.0 kW/kg with a power output of 114 kW max. That implies a FC system weight of 57 kg. The hydrogen tanks hold 5 kg H₂ at a weight percentage of 5.7%. That implies a tank weight of 83 kg. So, 145 kg total for tanks + FC system + 5 kg hydrogen, delivering an EPA estimated range of 312 miles.
So this implies a weight of about 0.5 kg/kW output, neglecting tanks. F1 engines put out 700 kW ±, so a direct scale of this suggests the cell would weigh about 350 kg. Of course F1 teams would reduce that weight by some factor. As far as size, I haven't seen dimensioned drawings so can't guess.

Here's a link to a NASA Apollo fuel cell operations manual. The Apollo cell (there were three) put out 1.42 kW maximum.

https://www.ibiblio.org/apollo/ApolloPr ... 06-eps.pdf

Just_a_fan
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Re: Hydrogen Fuelcell Formula

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Rodak wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 9:55 pm


So this implies a weight of about 0.5 kg/kW output, neglecting tanks. F1 engines put out 700 kW ±, so a direct scale of this suggests the cell would weigh about 350 kg. Of course F1 teams would reduce that weight by some factor. As far as size, I haven't seen dimensioned drawings so can't guess.
Why do you think F1 teams would be able to magically reduce the weight of a cell? They have total budgets of a few hundred million each with a handful of millions being used for R&D. Car manufacturers, who are looking to make the this technology really work well, have R&D budgets that dwarf the entire F1 grid's total budget. The likes of Toyota, Daimler, BMW et al are spending money on hydrogen that would pay for all of the teams for an entire season of F1 and still have money left over.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

gruntguru
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Re: Hydrogen Fuelcell Formula

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 10:18 pm
Rodak wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 9:55 pm


So this implies a weight of about 0.5 kg/kW output, neglecting tanks. F1 engines put out 700 kW ±, so a direct scale of this suggests the cell would weigh about 350 kg. Of course F1 teams would reduce that weight by some factor. As far as size, I haven't seen dimensioned drawings so can't guess.
Why do you think F1 teams would be able to magically reduce the weight of a cell?
Because the cell would not have many of the constraints that would apply for road cars. (Durability, warranty, unit cost, etc etc)
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Just_a_fan
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Re: Hydrogen Fuelcell Formula

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gruntguru wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 10:34 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 10:18 pm
Rodak wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 9:55 pm


So this implies a weight of about 0.5 kg/kW output, neglecting tanks. F1 engines put out 700 kW ±, so a direct scale of this suggests the cell would weigh about 350 kg. Of course F1 teams would reduce that weight by some factor. As far as size, I haven't seen dimensioned drawings so can't guess.
Why do you think F1 teams would be able to magically reduce the weight of a cell?
Because the cell would not have many of the constraints that would apply for road cars. (Durability, warranty, unit cost, etc etc)
But it's the process that defines the size as much as anything else. Chemistry will have a bigger effect on the size/mass of the cell than whether it has to meet a warranty period. And don't forget that F1 cars subject components to conditions that are likely to be equal to many months of "real life" usage but in a few short hours per weekend. A cell that can survive a typical F1 season would be durable enough to last years in a road car.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Rodak
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Re: Hydrogen Fuelcell Formula

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Why do you think F1 teams would be able to magically reduce the weight of a cell?

Obviously the size and weight of a fuel cell has been reduced over time and F1 is pretty good at innovation. New materials or membranes might reduce catalyst area, or perhaps higher operating pressures could be beneficial. Of course, if I knew the answers.....

And please note, I didn't say 'magically reduce', I wrote 'by some factor'; maybe that factor is 1.00. As I wrote earlier, I don't think hydrogen fuel cells are a viable power unit choice for F1 type speeds for a number of reasons.

NL_Fer
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Re: Hydrogen Fuelcell Formula

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Rodak wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 9:55 pm
From https://energypost.eu/the-lowdown-on-hy ... portation/
From Toyota’s product sheet for the Mirai, the fuel cell system delivers 2.0 kW/kg with a power output of 114 kW max. That implies a FC system weight of 57 kg. The hydrogen tanks hold 5 kg H₂ at a weight percentage of 5.7%. That implies a tank weight of 83 kg. So, 145 kg total for tanks + FC system + 5 kg hydrogen, delivering an EPA estimated range of 312 miles.
So this implies a weight of about 0.5 kg/kW output, neglecting tanks. F1 engines put out 700 kW ±, so a direct scale of this suggests the cell would weigh about 350 kg. Of course F1 teams would reduce that weight by some factor. As far as size, I haven't seen dimensioned drawings so can't guess.

Here's a link to a NASA Apollo fuel cell operations manual. The Apollo cell (there were three) put out 1.42 kW maximum.

https://www.ibiblio.org/apollo/ApolloPr ... 06-eps.pdf
Current ice is about 600kw + 120kw mgu-k. A 700kw electric motor would give more brake recovery. So maybe a 500kw fuelcell would be enough?

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henry
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Re: Hydrogen Fuelcell Formula

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Looks like the Hydrogen Power Unit, generator plus motor, battery and control electronics might weigh in at 450/500kg, Versus 150kg for current.

On the plus side it would require less cooling so heat exchangers would be smaller and lighter and produce less drag. The gearbox might be smaller and lighter and there’d be less hydraulics, only the steering?

And as @NL_Fer says there would be opportunities to increase braking recovery, albeit it is small, 1MJ/lap currently might become 4MJ off rear brakes only (120kW saturates the rears at about
120kph) 1 MJ Represents about 3% of energy deployed over a typical lap. To recover more would require the fronts to recover, more weight (motor and battery) but considerably more recovery. That might bring fuel cell output requirement down to 500kw.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

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henry
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Re: Hydrogen Fuelcell Formula

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If the fuel cell generated continuously over a lap with its output buffered by a battery when power demand is low then it might be possible to bring its output down to closer to 300kW. Battery sizing would depend on the circuits but a rough guess would be that around 20MJ usable capacity would do it.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

gruntguru
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Re: Hydrogen Fuelcell Formula

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henry wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:11 am
If the fuel cell generated continuously over a lap with its output buffered by a battery when power demand is low then it might be possible to bring its output down to closer to 300kW. Battery sizing would depend on the circuits but a rough guess would be that around 20MJ usable capacity would do it.
Battery - or Capacitor.
je suis charlie