Honda leaving F1.

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rogazilla
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:24 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 12:34 pm
https://www.motorsportweek.com/2020/10/ ... fter-2021/

Sounds like Honda is willing to help RBR even after they leave... 😲
Begs the question of how much they'll help. Would they give them engines but not have their name mentioned at all? Would they help Red Bull develop the engine with a third party? It's a heck of a thing to say "we'll help in any way we can" having just pulled out of the game. It throws up a huge number of questions and scenarios.
This is interesting and we will have to see how the story goes in 2021. Here is what I see on the surface of things.
1. Development frozen in 2022. Tinkering to make something better is different than innovation. If Honda believes they have achieved and learned what they can out of the current formula, make sense to leave.
2. This part may need others to help. I am making an assumption here; with budget cap, to the teams, it does not apply to RB-T. Having the technology transfer to RB-T makes integration easier and RB can move resources and budget to RB-T.
3. Cost to improving and maintaining is cheaper than developing. Honda could help as a technological partner such as consulting or provide a team to service the PU in season.

All speculation but it is an option assuming the relationship between RB and Honda is in a good place (They work together in many different series).

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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Zynerji wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 12:34 pm
https://www.motorsportweek.com/2020/10/ ... fter-2021/

Sounds like Honda is willing to help RBR even after they leave... 😲
From a business strategy point of view... Honda would not want the top engineers on this project anymore. So... Maybe..

1) Use RedBull as a training ground for young engineers, using the frozen 2021 engine.

2) Limited or no development of hardware year to year. Only the usual adjustment of software maps race to race and reliability upgrades. Combustion, cooling, Turbo and MGUH hardware stay untouched.

3) Manufacturing costs.... RedBull will foot the manufacturing cost. By FIA regulation a customer shall not pay more than 12M per year on engines. This should be enough to make a series of identical engines till 2025(?)

4) Branding.... It is a double edged sword if Honda still get to keep the engine branded as Honda. Win and it's a bingo. Get dusted and they become laughing stock again. It might be best to call the engine another name. Enter Mugen part 2?

5) Competitiveness. RedBull demands a comptetitive engine. Engine development will be frozen from 2023 until the rules are overturned. That means Honda has to ensure that its frozen 2021 engine is competitive enough from the outset and remains so through 2022 without development. RedBull will be greatly considering this. It is not out of reach to hang on till 2023 when everyone is frozen.


What else? Hmm
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Big Tea
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 3:19 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 12:34 pm
https://www.motorsportweek.com/2020/10/ ... fter-2021/

Sounds like Honda is willing to help RBR even after they leave... 😲
From a business strategy point of view... Honda would not want the top engineers on this project anymore. So... Maybe..

1) Use RedBull as a training ground for young engineers, using the frozen 2021 engine.

2) Limited or no development of hardware year to year. Only the usual adjustment of software maps race to race and reliability upgrades. Combustion, cooling, Turbo and MGUH hardware stay untouched.

3) Manufacturing costs.... RedBull will foot the manufacturing cost. By FIA regulation a customer shall not pay more than 12M per year on engines. This should be enough to make a series of identical engines till 2025(?)

4) Branding.... It is a double edged sword if Honda still get to keep the engine branded as Honda. Win and it's a bingo. Get dusted and they become laughing stock again. It might be best to call the engine another name. Enter Mugen part 2?

5) Competitiveness. RedBull demands a comptetitive engine. Engine development will be frozen from 2023 until the rules are overturned. That means Honda has to ensure that its frozen 2021 engine is competitive enough from the outset and remains so through 2022 without development. RedBull will be greatly considering this. It is not out of reach to hang on till 2023 when everyone is frozen.


What else? Hmm
It would be a very good training project for younger engineers or those who need to update their skill from anither area. This alone would be attractive to a company like Honda.

A core of staff in charge and students refreshers or 'spare' (if what we hear of automotive) employees paid by Honda the rest covered by Red Bull and who ever they can rope in.

It probably not be the best engine (long term) but it would be AN engine, and who knows where they could go once established
We are sitting on the shoulders of giants so we can see more things than they can

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Zynerji
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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RBR did upgrades/ mods during the Renault years. Why couldn't they continue development of the Honda IP?

RBR chassis, RBT engine. I think that is feasible. Especially if Red Bull were to buy a small manufacturer like Caterham and then sell the derivative technology in a production car.

Ringleheim
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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This is really bad for the sport. F1 is probably as sick right now as it has ever been.

The entire sport needs a re-think with the goal of getting LOTS more manufacturers involved in the sport, not less.

And what's with Honda? I remember when the Honda name was gold in F1. It's been garbage for 20 years or more now.

gshevlin
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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The record of private entities continuing to evolve manufacturer PUs is not an illustrious one. The SuperTec V10, the Renault V10 continuation operation from 1998 to 2000, was unable to stay competitive against Mercedes and Ferrari. That was in a much simpler pure ICE era.
Let's say that Red Bull is offered PUs by Renault for $35m a season for each team. That is $70m, covering almost all PU costs. After the Tag-Heuer badging experience, I am sure that Renault will not agree to a badging deal, so they will want their name on the cam covers and engine covers.
To be able to compete, Red Bull would need to be able to either maintain a PU of equal performance for $70m a year or less, or invest $100+m a season for a championship-winning PU. A lot less than being a full PU supplier, but still a lot of money.
I doubt that Honda would sell the IP to their PU. At best they might license it for a limited time period only for use in F1.
The challenge is that running a PU supply company only makes sense if they can find the right technical leadership, and if they have the ability to use the IP commercially. If Honda retains the valuable IP, that will not be possible.
I regard the chances of Red Bull being able to continue with the base Honda PU platform to be less than 50:50.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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PU are not that expensive though. First season was like 29 mil for the Renault the most expensive one. IIRC. Prices came down afterward.
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Andres125sx
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 9:00 pm
adrianjordan wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 10:31 am
Big Tea wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 10:26 am


You do not need to go that far, quit and promote F2 to the top
More likely Formula E.

That's where the future is headed eventually. Why not have F1 take the EV crown and run with it.

You would find VW Group, BMW, Honda and many more jumping at the chance to develop world beating EV motors with a sporty reputation.

I know it's not what petrol heads want, but it is coming and sooner than many of us could have imagined.
Yuck.. Anything slow and electric is not really pinnacle of motorsport. That's cheap marketing for manufacturers.
They spend a few dimes, and get "good, green PR", and maybe some appearance of road relevance.

Battery tech needs to be at least six times more energy dense before it reaches F1 levels of speed and endurance. I definitely don't want to see F1 go this way any time soon.
You won´t. FE owns the rights for FIA single seater electric racing wich basically means F1 will only exist while battery tech miss the necessary energy density to compete with F1. Once they can, F1 will either disapear, or become a vintage series


Any bet about Honda announcing in a near future their commitment with FE? :wink:

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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Agreements can always be reviewed... I think the FE agreement has a time line somewhere in it.

But anyway. I think the combustion engine will still pervade in years to come. Technology will be there to create synthetic fuels and also clean up the emissions. Maybe some crazy tech like contained ionic fission or something will be around. They way the world turns do not be surpirsed when production of batteries which use "non-renewable" sources and prodcue pollutants are seen as the "dirty one" in a few years lol. We just have to wait and see where this all goes. Anything is possible. But yep for now the hype is with EV cars.

(even though we have no grid capacity to charge millions of cars in the city at "superchargers" all at the same time before rush hour. Lol. Development in the grid infrastructure to do this is another thing i am keenly watching.
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gshevlin
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 5:05 am
PU are not that expensive though. First season was like 29 mil for the Renault the most expensive one. IIRC. Prices came down afterward.
That is not what I read. The reason why Williams moved to Mercedes was that the Renault cost for a season for 2 cars in 2014 was over $40m, and with an "in" via Toto Wolff, Williams were able to get a supply from Mercedes for a lot less than that.
The initial per-season costs were very high for many teams, until more of the R&D costs were recovered. Similar to the V8 era, where the maturing and then freezing of the engine specification allowed for the cost to be reduced significantly, which drove out the sole independent supplier (Cosworth) and led to F1 being supplied exclusively by auto manufacturer powerplants. The sole independent hybrid era PU supplier, PURE, put together a design project on the basis that the ICE was a 4 cylinder (the original version of the regulations), but then Renault (supposedly) pushed for the change to a V6 twin turbo ICE, and PURE's funding never materialized.

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Andres125sx
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 1:41 pm
Agreements can always be reviewed... I think the FE agreement has a time line somewhere in it.

But anyway. I think the combustion engine will still pervade in years to come. Technology will be there to create synthetic fuels and also clean up the emissions. Maybe some crazy tech like contained ionic fission or something will be around. They way the world turns do not be surpirsed when production of batteries which use "non-renewable" sources and prodcue pollutants are seen as the "dirty one" in a few years lol. We just have to wait and see where this all goes. Anything is possible. But yep for now the hype is with EV cars.

(even though we have no grid capacity to charge millions of cars in the city at "superchargers" all at the same time before rush hour. Lol. Development in the grid infrastructure to do this is another thing i am keenly watching.
The real hype is superchargers, not EVs, as they´re not needed, at least as a normal charging procedure. I´d say superchargers should be used in less than a 10% of the chargings, only for long travels. For daily use slow charging is enough and much better for the battery. Supercharging batteries reduce their lifespan but people is so obsessed with the idea of running out of energy that they use superchargers as a marketing tool to convice people about EVs

bidong
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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Just got me thinking...
PURE SPECULATION.

What if Aston Martin buys the IP of the Honda PU and develops it on their own separately. This will allow Red Bull to retain the Aston Martin branding as well.

Do you guys think Aston Martin will start creating their own PU, buy the IP from Honda? or continue work with Cosworth, the same way they worked together with the Valkyrie?

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Schuttelberg
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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bidong wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 8:35 am
Just got me thinking...
PURE SPECULATION.

What if Aston Martin buys the IP of the Honda PU and develops it on their own separately. This will allow Red Bull to retain the Aston Martin branding as well.

Do you guys think Aston Martin will start creating their own PU, buy the IP from Honda? or continue work with Cosworth, the same way they worked together with the Valkyrie?
Aston Martin are going separate ways. Their interest is going to be all in the Racing Point basket and there's a reason they've chosen the Merc PU. Aston Martin isn't exactly swimming in money and there's no reason for them to go crazy and develop a product with no future having nothing invested.

I think the sad reality is that no new manufacturer finds the current engine formula 1 of a futuristic value in their road cars of the future and it's just too expensive to carve out a marketing appeal or niche.

Murmurs are now coming out with Max's contract and how using a Renault PU compromises RBR.

Long story short- This is just terrible news.
"Sebastian there's very, you're a member of a very select few.. Stewart, Lauda, Piquet, Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Fangio.. VETTEL!"

wunderkind
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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bidong wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 8:35 am
Just got me thinking...
PURE SPECULATION.

What if Aston Martin buys the IP of the Honda PU and develops it on their own separately. This will allow Red Bull to retain the Aston Martin branding as well.

Do you guys think Aston Martin will start creating their own PU, buy the IP from Honda? or continue work with Cosworth, the same way they worked together with the Valkyrie?
AM has very little spare cash, let alone buying the Honda power unit IP, Honda's Milton Keynes site (and the staff), and the machines needed to manufacture the power unit in the UK (not merely servicing them). It's hundreds of millions of pounds just to get the party started.

It's best for the FIA to buy the Honda power unit IP and subcontract the manufacturing to 3rd party outfits, me thinks.

zeph
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Re: Honda leaving F1.

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Not to mention Daimler AG owns stake in Aston Martin, and AMG develops the engines for their road cars as well.

Everything about Aston Martin F1 with Mercedes PU's makes sense. It's a logical continuation of what is already happening.