Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
63l8qrrfy6
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Joined: 17 Feb 2016, 21:36

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Fulcrum wrote:
07 Oct 2020, 12:41
Mudflap wrote:
06 Oct 2020, 18:57
For those who still believe oil burning is a thing:

Assume the car burns 0.9l of oil (300km race, 0.3l/km) per race and assume a team somehow manages to formulate an oil blend with the same heating values as fuel (say 45MJ/kg) which the FIA somehow fails to notice. Say 50 laps per race, 100s per lap gives roughly 6.5kW available in this fuel/oil per lap at 800kg/m^3 oil density.

Now say this can be converted with some 25% efficiency given than it can only find its way into the combustion chamber by going past the rings and hence will burn very poorly. That's about 2 horsepower.

Do you still think this is something that can be exploited ?
Umm, wouldn't that be 0.003l/km?
Correct, I meant to say 0.3l/100km which is the FIA limit.

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Craigy
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Joined: 10 Nov 2009, 10:20

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Fulcrum wrote:
07 Oct 2020, 12:41
Mudflap wrote:
06 Oct 2020, 18:57
For those who still believe oil burning is a thing:

Assume the car burns 0.9l of oil (300km race, 0.3l/km) per race and assume a team somehow manages to formulate an oil blend with the same heating values as fuel (say 45MJ/kg) which the FIA somehow fails to notice. Say 50 laps per race, 100s per lap gives roughly 6.5kW available in this fuel/oil per lap at 800kg/m^3 oil density.

Now say this can be converted with some 25% efficiency given than it can only find its way into the combustion chamber by going past the rings and hence will burn very poorly. That's about 2 horsepower.

Do you still think this is something that can be exploited ?
Umm, wouldn't that be 0.003l/km?
Well, if you were allowed to burn 300ml per km, that would add up to 91.5 litres for the full 305km race :)

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godlameroso
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Joined: 16 Jan 2010, 21:27
Location: Miami FL

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Mudflap wrote:
06 Oct 2020, 23:35
Revs84 wrote:
06 Oct 2020, 22:38
Mudflap wrote:
06 Oct 2020, 21:14

A race engine with 0 oil consumption? That would be the invention of the century. If they can do that they are unstoppable!
Well they have been so far haven't they? :lol: Does this mean the engine has no oil consumption? :mrgreen:
Yea, although if that's the case their rings must be so tight they are losing more power in friction than they make by burning oil.

But why should we let simple engineering get in the way of a conspiracy theory ?
You can have very little oil consumption, far less than .9l per GP. Not hard to do. They could stipulate .3l per GP and it would just be annoying for most manufacturers, probably lose like 5hp, but after a $10 million investment they'd claw back the power by reworking the ring pack and pistons.
Saishū kōnā

tangodjango
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Joined: 14 Mar 2020, 23:38

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Mudflap wrote:
06 Oct 2020, 18:57
For those who still believe oil burning is a thing:

Assume the car burns 0.9l of oil (300km race, 0.3l/km) per race and assume a team somehow manages to formulate an oil blend with the same heating values as fuel (say 45MJ/kg) which the FIA somehow fails to notice. Say 50 laps per race, 100s per lap gives roughly 6.5kW available in this fuel/oil per lap at 800kg/m^3 oil density.

Now say this can be converted with some 25% efficiency given than it can only find its way into the combustion chamber by going past the rings and hence will burn very poorly. That's about 2 horsepower.

Do you still think this is something that can be exploited ?
Seems like solid proof to me. The flipside is: your calculation applies to previous seasons too.

Since the issue is the ratio of *usable energy* vs *mass of the extra oil*, consuming 5l of oil won't show any benefits over 0.9l. You'd still struggle to break even on laptime either way. This was just as true in 2016 as it is today. Burning oil for its energy content has never made sense.
...Yet they clearly did it anyway. Oil consumption in the last year of the V8s was ~0.2l/100km if I remember, so the gobs Merc were using in '16 clearly weren't from natural consequence. Some other mechanism was in play that made over-consuming oil advantageous despite the extra weight.

"Oil burning as a delivery system for illegal fuel additives" has always been the far more likely explanation. Accomplishing that with only 0.3l/100 km would take some super-clever chemistry, but it's probably no longer an impossible scenario. It's most likely achievable.
“Hamilton’s talent is perhaps even more than that of Ayrton or Schumacher or Fernando." - Rubens Barrichello

63l8qrrfy6
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Joined: 17 Feb 2016, 21:36

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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tangodjango wrote:
07 Oct 2020, 23:01
Mudflap wrote:
06 Oct 2020, 18:57
For those who still believe oil burning is a thing:

Assume the car burns 0.9l of oil (300km race, 0.3l/km) per race and assume a team somehow manages to formulate an oil blend with the same heating values as fuel (say 45MJ/kg) which the FIA somehow fails to notice. Say 50 laps per race, 100s per lap gives roughly 6.5kW available in this fuel/oil per lap at 800kg/m^3 oil density.

Now say this can be converted with some 25% efficiency given than it can only find its way into the combustion chamber by going past the rings and hence will burn very poorly. That's about 2 horsepower.

Do you still think this is something that can be exploited ?
Seems like solid proof to me. The flipside is: your calculation applies to previous seasons too.

Since the issue is the ratio of *usable energy* vs *mass of the extra oil*, consuming 5l of oil won't show any benefits over 0.9l. You'd still struggle to break even on laptime either way. This was just as true in 2016 as it is today. Burning oil for its energy content has never made sense.
...Yet they clearly did it anyway. Oil consumption in the last year of the V8s was ~0.2l/100km if I remember, so the gobs Merc were using in '16 clearly weren't from natural consequence. Some other mechanism was in play that made over-consuming oil advantageous despite the extra weight.

"Oil burning as a delivery system for illegal fuel additives" has always been the far more likely explanation. Accomplishing that with only 0.3l/100 km would take some super-clever chemistry, but it's probably no longer an impossible scenario. It's most likely achievable.
You are forgetting that:
A. They were allowed to return the blowby to the turbo inlet. This meant that the oil could be well mixed with the air and so would burn much better.
B. Oil composition was unregulated. For what we know they could have used rocket fuel for oil and FIA would not have batted an eyelid.
C. If used for a qualy lap the mass penalty would have probably been tiny compared to potential benefits.

Going back to the N/A era, Honda say that in 2003 their qualy engine oil consumption was over 3l/100km and 1l/100 km during race. By 2006 they managed to achieve 0.66l/100km.
Keep in mind these engines had less than half the cylinder pressure of turbo engines, about 4 times less mileage and never knocked!

Current engines experience higher ring temperatures, pressures and are required to last much longer. This means that over the life of the engine the rings lose a very significant chunk of their tangential force. I am actually surprised they manage to achieve the current levels of oil consumption.

tangodjango
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Joined: 14 Mar 2020, 23:38

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Mudflap wrote:
07 Oct 2020, 23:17
tangodjango wrote:
07 Oct 2020, 23:01
Mudflap wrote:
06 Oct 2020, 18:57
For those who still believe oil burning is a thing:

Assume the car burns 0.9l of oil (300km race, 0.3l/km) per race and assume a team somehow manages to formulate an oil blend with the same heating values as fuel (say 45MJ/kg) which the FIA somehow fails to notice. Say 50 laps per race, 100s per lap gives roughly 6.5kW available in this fuel/oil per lap at 800kg/m^3 oil density.

Now say this can be converted with some 25% efficiency given than it can only find its way into the combustion chamber by going past the rings and hence will burn very poorly. That's about 2 horsepower.

Do you still think this is something that can be exploited ?
Seems like solid proof to me. The flipside is: your calculation applies to previous seasons too.

Since the issue is the ratio of *usable energy* vs *mass of the extra oil*, consuming 5l of oil won't show any benefits over 0.9l. You'd still struggle to break even on laptime either way. This was just as true in 2016 as it is today. Burning oil for its energy content has never made sense.
...Yet they clearly did it anyway. Oil consumption in the last year of the V8s was ~0.2l/100km if I remember, so the gobs Merc were using in '16 clearly weren't from natural consequence. Some other mechanism was in play that made over-consuming oil advantageous despite the extra weight.

"Oil burning as a delivery system for illegal fuel additives" has always been the far more likely explanation. Accomplishing that with only 0.3l/100 km would take some super-clever chemistry, but it's probably no longer an impossible scenario. It's most likely achievable.
You are forgetting that:
A. They were allowed to return the blowby to the turbo inlet. This meant that the oil could be well mixed with the air and so would burn much better.
B. Oil composition was unregulated. For what we know they could have used rocket fuel for oil and FIA would not have batted an eyelid.
C. If used for a qualy lap the mass penalty would have probably been tiny compared to potential benefits.

Going back to the N/A era, Honda say that in 2003 their qualy engine oil consumption was over 3l/100km and 1l/100 km during race. By 2006 they managed to achieve 0.66l/100km.
Keep in mind these engines had less than half the cylinder pressure of turbo engines, about 4 times less mileage and never knocked!

Current engines experience higher ring temperatures, pressures and are required to last much longer. This means that over the life of the engine the rings lose a very significant chunk of their tangential force. I am actually surprised they manage to achieve the current levels of oil consumption.
That seems fairly comprehensive to debunk the oil burning hypothesis, you're right I had overlooked point A. Though the oil additives theory now seems unlikely if not totally impossible I just wonder how they managed to find the step in performance over this year especially in quali mode, can all of it be explained by the engine being detuned for cooling last year and the rumoured new engine architecture this year.
I guess we'll never know.
“Hamilton’s talent is perhaps even more than that of Ayrton or Schumacher or Fernando." - Rubens Barrichello

63l8qrrfy6
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Joined: 17 Feb 2016, 21:36

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Just to make it clear, after the Ferrari saga I would not rule out anyone doing something dodgy, it is F1 after all!
I just don't believe it is oil burning, not any more.

Secondly, I am not sure Merc's PU advantage is really that great. What do the latest journo numbers say.. 20hp or so over Honda? What is that considering how late Honda joined the party ?

gruntguru
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Joined: 21 Feb 2009, 07:43

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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tangodjango wrote:
07 Oct 2020, 23:29
. . I just wonder how they managed to find the step in performance over this year especially in quali mode, can all of it be explained by the engine being detuned for cooling last year and the rumoured new engine architecture this year.
I guess we'll never know.
Honda usually publish their research once the risk of other teams copying has passed.
je suis charlie

tangodjango
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Joined: 14 Mar 2020, 23:38

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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gruntguru wrote:
07 Oct 2020, 23:57
tangodjango wrote:
07 Oct 2020, 23:29
. . I just wonder how they managed to find the step in performance over this year especially in quali mode, can all of it be explained by the engine being detuned for cooling last year and the rumoured new engine architecture this year.
I guess we'll never know.
Honda usually publish their research once the risk of other teams copying has passed.
Referring to Mercedes not Honda
“Hamilton’s talent is perhaps even more than that of Ayrton or Schumacher or Fernando." - Rubens Barrichello

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etusch
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Joined: 22 Feb 2009, 23:09
Location: Turkey

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Mudflap wrote:
07 Oct 2020, 23:36
Just to make it clear, after the Ferrari saga I would not rule out anyone doing something dodgy, it is F1 after all!
I just don't believe it is oil burning, not any more.

Secondly, I am not sure Merc's PU advantage is really that great. What do the latest journo numbers say.. 20hp or so over Honda? What is that considering how late Honda joined the party ?
I believe mercedes is not clear in both chassis and pu. it is oil burning or something else. Oil burning is just known basic source of how they finding extra performance. So I don't insist oil/or some fuel named oil. but I insist They are not clear. There is 2 teams found extra big performance and one is now worst engine. believe other one would be same if there is a fair and competent administration. For "where is proof" guys. I don't have proof, you can be relaxed by this.
when it come to 20 hp. Honda was closer and better at some tracks to mercedes last year. This year nobody better than mercedes at any track. Accordng to news they found 12+- hp starting last year and made pu higher working temperature. But they had cooling issues(and they were aware of it before the season). How much they detuned their pu? 20 hp, 30 hp ? every track? just when they were in traffic or even they were at front with clean air? in cold weathers too? If they didn't detuned it for whole year and every race of every lap... othewise which races were detuned and which were not. then compare performance..
It looks like they went a bit forward with higher working temperature aproach. is it worth another 12 hp? let give them it. If Honda also developed it must be almost same with last year. Honda were best at Austuria last year but this year not even close to them?
No no this not normal and not just 20-30 hp thing. It is not like"we solved high altitute issue with turbo and cooling. It is not "we aimed Ferrari level and of course achieved(because only thing we need is aiming something then it will be achieved soon) and not just achieved, achieved it legally (because Ferrari also not illegal there is nothing to afraid)". All these are lies.

Mansell89
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Joined: 22 Feb 2015, 19:21

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Guys how long would a reasonable timeline be for Ferrari to improve the PU to within a stones throw of the benchmark PU (Merc)?

NL_Fer
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Joined: 15 Jun 2014, 09:48

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Mansell89 wrote:
08 Oct 2020, 22:31
Guys how long would a reasonable timeline be for Ferrari to improve the PU to within a stones throw of the benchmark PU (Merc)?
Took just one year in 2015

gruntguru
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Joined: 21 Feb 2009, 07:43

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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etusch wrote:
08 Oct 2020, 08:51
I believe mercedes is not clear in both chassis and pu. it is oil burning or something else. Oil burning is just known basic source of how they finding extra performance. So I don't insist oil/or some fuel named oil. but I insist They are not clear. There is 2 teams found extra big performance and one is now worst engine. believe other one would be same if there is a fair and competent administration. For "where is proof" guys. I don't have proof, you can be relaxed by this.
when it come to 20 hp. Honda was closer and better at some tracks to mercedes last year. This year nobody better than mercedes at any track. Accordng to news they found 12+- hp starting last year and made pu higher working temperature. But they had cooling issues(and they were aware of it before the season). How much they detuned their pu? 20 hp, 30 hp ? every track? just when they were in traffic or even they were at front with clean air? in cold weathers too? If they didn't detuned it for whole year and every race of every lap... othewise which races were detuned and which were not. then compare performance..
It looks like they went a bit forward with higher working temperature aproach. is it worth another 12 hp? let give them it. If Honda also developed it must be almost same with last year. Honda were best at Austuria last year but this year not even close to them?
No no this not normal and not just 20-30 hp thing. It is not like"we solved high altitute issue with turbo and cooling. It is not "we aimed Ferrari level and of course achieved(because only thing we need is aiming something then it will be achieved soon) and not just achieved, achieved it legally (because Ferrari also not illegal there is nothing to afraid)". All these are lies.
So - guilty until proven innocent. No proof required - not even a reasonable suspicion or suggestion on how they might be cheating. Just - "they have more power, they must be cheating".
je suis charlie

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etusch
131
Joined: 22 Feb 2009, 23:09
Location: Turkey

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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gruntguru wrote:
08 Oct 2020, 23:12
etusch wrote:
08 Oct 2020, 08:51
I believe mercedes is not clear in both chassis and pu. it is oil burning or something else. Oil burning is just known basic source of how they finding extra performance. So I don't insist oil/or some fuel named oil. but I insist They are not clear. There is 2 teams found extra big performance and one is now worst engine. believe other one would be same if there is a fair and competent administration. For "where is proof" guys. I don't have proof, you can be relaxed by this.
when it come to 20 hp. Honda was closer and better at some tracks to mercedes last year. This year nobody better than mercedes at any track. Accordng to news they found 12+- hp starting last year and made pu higher working temperature. But they had cooling issues(and they were aware of it before the season). How much they detuned their pu? 20 hp, 30 hp ? every track? just when they were in traffic or even they were at front with clean air? in cold weathers too? If they didn't detuned it for whole year and every race of every lap... othewise which races were detuned and which were not. then compare performance..
It looks like they went a bit forward with higher working temperature aproach. is it worth another 12 hp? let give them it. If Honda also developed it must be almost same with last year. Honda were best at Austuria last year but this year not even close to them?
No no this not normal and not just 20-30 hp thing. It is not like"we solved high altitute issue with turbo and cooling. It is not "we aimed Ferrari level and of course achieved(because only thing we need is aiming something then it will be achieved soon) and not just achieved, achieved it legally (because Ferrari also not illegal there is nothing to afraid)". All these are lies.
So - guilty until proven innocent. No proof required - not even a reasonable suspicion or suggestion on how they might be cheating. Just - "they have more power, they must be cheating".
I've said my reasons. If you can't see or don't want to see, I can't help you

gruntguru
563
Joined: 21 Feb 2009, 07:43

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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No help wanted. I just think this kind of speculation belongs in a different type of forum.
je suis charlie