Hydrogen Fuelcell Formula

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Brake Horse Power
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Re: Hydrogen Fuelcell Formula

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Some numbers. Ordinary petrol has an energy density of 46,4MJ/kg. Total allowed fuel now is 110kg. Total stored energy 5104MJ. At 50% TE this means in one race maximum 2552MJ goes to the wheels. Equals 708kWh.

Suppose an F1 race is 90 minutes this means you will need a 472kW fuel cell. If you can regen more during braking the size obviously decreases, that would be nice from a technical point of view however I don't think you will get the stopping power they have now.

Suppose they manage to make the fuel cell 75% efficient incl balance of plant. Would mean there is 944kWh potential energy needed. Hydrogen lower heating value is 33,3kWh/kg so 28,5kg of liquid hydrogen is needed.

Some notes: radiator size isn't only depending on the thermal efficiency but also the delta T between operating temp and ambient. The larger delta T, the smaller the radiator size. If you have liquid hydrogen onboard it might make sense to use it to cool the FC.

Battery size will probably need to be bigger than current since there is less power from the FC available vs ICE.

Rodak
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Joined: 04 Oct 2017, 03:02

Re: Hydrogen Fuelcell Formula

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.....so 28,5kg of liquid hydrogen is needed.
That's about 400 liters, approximately two wine barrels worth. Where is this going to be carried? Don't forget this is a cryogenic liquid under pressure...... Or is there going to be refueling? One of the issues with using liquid hydrogen as a rocket fuel is exactly this, the large volume required. For comparison, 110 kg of gasoline has a volume of about 147 L.

Brake Horse Power
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Joined: 25 Oct 2017, 21:36

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I didn't say it was a good idea 😉

With regards to fuels ethanol or methanol fuel cells make more sense, however than you need to include a reformer as well (or use DMFC). Making it bigger and heavier on the system side.

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GM7
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Just_a_fan
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Re: Hydrogen Fuelcell Formula

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Rodak wrote:
12 Oct 2020, 01:42
.....so 28,5kg of liquid hydrogen is needed.
That's about 400 liters, approximately two wine barrels worth. Where is this going to be carried? Don't forget this is a cryogenic liquid under pressure...... Or is there going to be refueling? One of the issues with using liquid hydrogen as a rocket fuel is exactly this, the large volume required. For comparison, 110 kg of gasoline has a volume of about 147 L.
A lot of work is being done materials that can store hydrogen within. Metal-organic frameworks (MOF) seems to be a popular route.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

Rodak
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A lot of work is being done materials that can store hydrogen within. Metal-organic frameworks (MOF) seems to be a popular route.
I don't see how any hydrogen storage method can be denser than the liquid. It may be denser for gas, but liquid hydrogen is about as far as you can go, unless you get to some dense solid state at 5°K and 100 bar or so...... I did see a study where a French team observed transition of hydrogen to a metallic state at 425 GPa; one gigaPascal = 10,000 bar......

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ispano6
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Japan and Saudi Arabia are leading the way with blue ammonia and green ammonia. Eventually the cost to produce both should come down especially as research and adoption ramp up.

Just_a_fan
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Rodak wrote:
16 Oct 2020, 02:44
A lot of work is being done materials that can store hydrogen within. Metal-organic frameworks (MOF) seems to be a popular route.
I don't see how any hydrogen storage method can be denser than the liquid. It may be denser for gas, but liquid hydrogen is about as far as you can go, unless you get to some dense solid state at 5°K and 100 bar or so...... I did see a study where a French team observed transition of hydrogen to a metallic state at 425 GPa; one gigaPascal = 10,000 bar......
The point is that you don't need the cryogenic storage and all the issues that go with it. Liquid H2 is potentially nasty stuff.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

tok-tokkie
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In the Total video the refueling time is 4 minutes. That is a problem in a 24 hour race but a killer for a F1 type race. Either carry a race worth's of fuel from the start or have quick connect H2 tanks that get exchanged during a refueling stop.
I am very interested in what will transpire. Japan & Korea are committed to H2 vehicles. I hope the racing will be more exciting than Formula E (and the recent F1 seasons).

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Big Tea
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tok-tokkie wrote:
16 Oct 2020, 11:58
In the Total video the refueling time is 4 minutes. That is a problem in a 24 hour race but a killer for a F1 type race. Either carry a race worth's of fuel from the start or have quick connect H2 tanks that get exchanged during a refueling stop.
I am very interested in what will transpire. Japan & Korea are committed to H2 vehicles. I hope the racing will be more exciting than Formula E (and the recent F1 seasons).
Good points.

Maybe it would pay F1 to get a banker in by making provision for Hydrogen before some does a FE and nabs all rights to it for 25 years.
It would not have to be used, just allowed.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

Rodak
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Re: Hydrogen Fuelcell Formula

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The point is that you don't need the cryogenic storage and all the issues that go with it.
I understand, but now, by using gaseous hydrogen stored in some substrate you've increased the volume significantly and added weight compared to liquid H2..... I suspect any method of storing hydrogen gas in a substrate will also require a pressure vessel.

Xwang
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Joined: 02 Dec 2012, 11:12

Re: Hydrogen Fuelcell Formula

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ispano6 wrote:
16 Oct 2020, 08:06
Japan and Saudi Arabia are leading the way with blue ammonia and green ammonia. Eventually the cost to produce both should come down especially as research and adoption ramp up.
It is an alternative even thought I read some times ago that ammonia could be used as fuel, but there are concerns about toxicity and environment "pollution".
Another solution is to use synthetic fuels made from renewable energy using CO2 capturing methods.

Just_a_fan
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Joined: 31 Jan 2010, 20:37

Re: Hydrogen Fuelcell Formula

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Rodak wrote:
16 Oct 2020, 16:18
The point is that you don't need the cryogenic storage and all the issues that go with it.
I understand, but now, by using gaseous hydrogen stored in some substrate you've increased the volume significantly and added weight compared to liquid H2..... I suspect any method of storing hydrogen gas in a substrate will also require a pressure vessel.
My own view is that hydrogen is a rubbish fuel for cars in general and especially racing cars. Fine for lorries / buses, perhaps even trains, but not cars.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

Just_a_fan
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Joined: 31 Jan 2010, 20:37

Re: Hydrogen Fuelcell Formula

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Xwang wrote:
16 Oct 2020, 18:10
ispano6 wrote:
16 Oct 2020, 08:06
Japan and Saudi Arabia are leading the way with blue ammonia and green ammonia. Eventually the cost to produce both should come down especially as research and adoption ramp up.
It is an alternative even thought I read some times ago that ammonia could be used as fuel, but there are concerns about toxicity and environment "pollution".
Another solution is to use synthetic fuels made from renewable energy using CO2 capturing methods.
Burning ammonia will release NOx, lots of NOx. It's also hugely energy intensive to make. Currently approximately 2% of the World's energy production goes to making ammonia. That's then used in industry and for making fertilizer.

Ammonia can be used as a hydrogen store, it's catalysed to release H2 and N2, the H2 can then be used in a fuel cell. Ammonia is a nasty thing, however, with toxicity at quite low levels. Even when not at fatal concentrations in the air, it can cause serious damage to the lungs etc., and even normal skin.

Making fuel from captured CO2 is a nice idea. It doesn't solve urban air quality issues, however.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

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ispano6
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Re: Hydrogen Fuelcell Formula

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Just_a_fan wrote:
16 Oct 2020, 18:28
Xwang wrote:
16 Oct 2020, 18:10
ispano6 wrote:
16 Oct 2020, 08:06
Japan and Saudi Arabia are leading the way with blue ammonia and green ammonia. Eventually the cost to produce both should come down especially as research and adoption ramp up.
It is an alternative even thought I read some times ago that ammonia could be used as fuel, but there are concerns about toxicity and environment "pollution".
Another solution is to use synthetic fuels made from renewable energy using CO2 capturing methods.
Burning ammonia will release NOx, lots of NOx. It's also hugely energy intensive to make. Currently approximately 2% of the World's energy production goes to making ammonia. That's then used in industry and for making fertilizer.

Ammonia can be used as a hydrogen store, it's catalysed to release H2 and N2, the H2 can then be used in a fuel cell. Ammonia is a nasty thing, however, with toxicity at quite low levels. Even when not at fatal concentrations in the air, it can cause serious damage to the lungs etc., and even normal skin.

Making fuel from captured CO2 is a nice idea. It doesn't solve urban air quality issues, however.
Again, looks like Kumamoto, Japan has found a way to eliminate the NOx issues, hence why they are moving forward with Aramco to use Blue and Green ammonia. The Hydrogen Economy seems pretty promising.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 100256.htm
... Among the possible forms of liquid H2, ammonia (NH3) is a promising carrier because it has high H2 density, is easily liquefied, and can be produced on a large-scale...

Additionally, NH3 has been drawing attention recently as a carbon-free alternative fuel. NH3 is a combustible gas that can be widely used in thermal power generation and industrial furnaces as an alternative to gasoline and light oil. However, it is difficult to burn (high ignition temperature) and generates harmful nitrogen oxides (NOx) during combustion.

Researchers at the International Research Organization for Advanced Science and Technology (IROAST) in Kumamoto University, Japan focused on a "catalytic combustion method" to solve the NH3 fuel problems. This method adds substances that promote or suppress chemical reactions during fuel combustion. Recently, they succeeded in developing a new catalyst which improves NH3 combustibility and suppresses the generation of NOx. The novel catalyst (CuOx/3A2S) is a mullite-type crystal structure 3Al2O3·2SiO2 (3A2S) carrying copper oxide (CuOx). When NH3 was burned with this catalyst, researchers found that it stayed highly active in the selective production of N2, meaning that it suppressed NOx formation, and the catalyst itself did not change even at high temperatures. Additionally, they succeeded with in situ (Operando) observations during the CuOx/3A2S reaction, and clarified the NH3 catalytic combustion reaction mechanism...