[ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

[etusch]

top 3 must be banned to work next season car until a spesific time . If there is rule change everyone must start same time

[Big Tea]

top 3 must be banned to work next season car until a spesific time . If there is rule change everyone must start same time

But its the same rules for everyone. You can not have staggered starting times, and if we did people would say 'they have far more resources than us, they can get more done than we can in the time. It is favouring them again'

[etusch]

top 3 must be banned to work next season car until a spesific time . If there is rule change everyone must start same time

But its the same rules for everyone. You can not have staggered starting times, and if we did people would say 'they have far more resources than us, they can get more done than we can in the time. It is favouring them again'

Isn't it better to start season together and finish together. This keep current season alive. same starting time for teams and good race for engineers too.

[TNTHead]

top 3 must be banned to work next season car until a spesific time . If there is rule change everyone must start same time

But its the same rules for everyone. You can not have staggered starting times, and if we did people would say 'they have far more resources than us, they can get more done than we can in the time. It is favouring them again'

Agreed that many times before Merc was starting earlier than others. But this time the rule change is minor so when developing this years car that can be applied to next years car it is also beneficial for next years car. So flow conditioning development on the front wing should not be a waste of time.

This kind of narrative could be part of psychological warfare: the mercs are unbeatable!

[zibby43]

top 3 must be banned to work next season car until a spesific time . If there is rule change everyone must start same time

But its the same rules for everyone. You can not have staggered starting times, and if we did people would say 'they have far more resources than us, they can get more done than we can in the time. It is favouring them again'

Agreed that many times before Merc was starting earlier than others. But this time the rule change is minor so when developing this years car that can be applied to next years car it is also beneficial for next years car. So flow conditioning development on the front wing should not be a waste of time.

This kind of narrative good be part of psychological warfare: the mercs are unbeatable!

The rule change for next year has actually turned out to be a pretty major one.

A 10% reduction in downforce from areas of the car that are critical in producing efficient downforce.

No moor floor slots. A significantly reduced floor surface area. A change in the fins around the rear brake ducts. And a reduction in the length of the vertical diffuser slats. (Just to name a few.)

The floor/diffuser are vital areas, especially for high-rake cars. To be able to claw back that downforce efficiently is going to be a major aerodynamic engineering challenge.

I too thought it was going to be worthwhile to just continuing developing '20 cars all year back when I wasn't paying much attention to the '21 rules changes. But now I think the scope of the changes are almost on par with the FW/barge board/RW tweaks of '19.

[zibby43]

Speaking of races, next race will be interesting, now with more time to dial in the car with the new upgrades, I expect RB to be even faster in the corners. The next track has a lot of second and third gear corners and although Mercedes has the edge with engine power, they've fallen behind chassis wise. Tire wear won't be much of an issue, save for the rear left tire which takes the brunt of the damage. Still I expect a one stop or an aggressive two stop will be the ideal strategy. There will obviously be a safety car or two, new venue and all.

I wouldn't say they've fallen behind. While they've made a deliberate decision to start focusing on the '21 car, they've also made a deliberate decision to run with less downforce to mitigate the effects of PU mode restrictions.

They've given up a little speed in the corners as a result.

"The engineers realized that they could no longer afford 'a lot of wing' because they could no longer have the many horses they had previously. For this reason, they decided to use the setup of compromise downloading the car to give priority to the speed on the straight at the expense of speed cornering."

"A choice that, at present, only Mercedes can afford to make because, even with less wing, it continues to have excellent cornering speeds (although not the best) and, thanks to the large load they have , they are able to exploit optimally tires even in very extreme environmental conditions like we had at the Nurburgring."

https://www.funoanalisitecnica.com/2020 ... a-w11.html

Red Bull is definitely making huge strides with its car though. Exciting stuff.

https://the-race.com/formula-1/mercedes ... -time-ago/

It`s the same story as every year. Rinse and repeat.

Thanks for sharing that. I had suspected as much. If we see anything else new on the car for the final few races, it will have been completed a long time ago.

[tangodjango]

I wouldn't say they've fallen behind. While they've made a deliberate decision to start focusing on the '21 car, they've also made a deliberate decision to run with less downforce to mitigate the effects of PU mode restrictions.

They've given up a little speed in the corners as a result.

"The engineers realized that they could no longer afford 'a lot of wing' because they could no longer have the many horses they had previously. For this reason, they decided to use the setup of compromise downloading the car to give priority to the speed on the straight at the expense of speed cornering."

"A choice that, at present, only Mercedes can afford to make because, even with less wing, it continues to have excellent cornering speeds (although not the best) and, thanks to the large load they have , they are able to exploit optimally tires even in very extreme environmental conditions like we had at the Nurburgring."

https://www.funoanalisitecnica.com/2020 ... a-w11.html

Red Bull is definitely making huge strides with its car though. Exciting stuff.

https://the-race.com/formula-1/mercedes ... -time-ago/

It`s the same story as every year. Rinse and repeat.

Thanks for sharing that. I had suspected as much. If we see anything else new on the car for the final few races, it will have been completed a long time ago.

It's true Red Bull have definitely gained through development but it was also that the Nurburgring made Mercedes look a little worse than they were.
Merc will probably bring some test parts for 2021 once both titles have
been wrapped up. Whether Red Bull's 2020 B spec chassis in 2021 plus the new Honda engine will be enough to get in touch with Mercedes remains to be seen. Because development of next year's cars in-season is almost impossible due to the budget cap and amount of work for the 2022 cars. Mercedes are taking advantage of this by developing the 2021 and 2022 non aero components under the unrestricted budget this year while probably focusing completely on 2022 under next year's budget cap. Perhaps that would be wisest for Red Bull to do too.

[Big Tea]

top 3 must be banned to work next season car until a spesific time . If there is rule change everyone must start same time

But its the same rules for everyone. You can not have staggered starting times, and if we did people would say 'they have far more resources than us, they can get more done than we can in the time. It is favouring them again'

Isn't it better to start season together and finish together. This keep current season alive. same starting time for teams and good race for engineers too.

Perhaps once they have the budget cap in place, but now the less well off teams will have far less man hours than those that have 4 times as many personnel working on it. If its a diminishing returns, that the lesser teams will have a bigger share of the possible pie as the big teams are still after 1% steps.

[tangodjango]

But its the same rules for everyone. You can not have staggered starting times, and if we did people would say 'they have far more resources than us, they can get more done than we can in the time. It is favouring them again'

Agreed that many times before Merc was starting earlier than others. But this time the rule change is minor so when developing this years car that can be applied to next years car it is also beneficial for next years car. So flow conditioning development on the front wing should not be a waste of time.

This kind of narrative good be part of psychological warfare: the mercs are unbeatable!

The rule change for next year has actually turned out to be a pretty major one.

A 10% reduction in downforce from areas of the car that are critical in producing efficient downforce.

No moor floor slots. A significantly reduced floor surface area. A change in the fins around the rear brake ducts. And a reduction in the length of the vertical diffuser slats. (Just to name a few.)

The floor/diffuser are vital areas, especially for high-rake cars. To be able to claw back that downforce efficiently is going to be a major aerodynamic engineering challenge.

I too thought it was going to be worthwhile to just continuing developing '20 cars all year back when I wasn't paying much attention to the '21 rules changes. But now I think the scope of the changes are almost on par with the FW/barge board/RW tweaks of '19.

Instead of such stupid last minute changes couldn't they just build a tire compound one step harder than the current C1 and mandate two stops at all the races where tire wear was marginal? That way smaller teams wouldn't have to focus any resources on 2021.

[zibby43]

Agreed that many times before Merc was starting earlier than others. But this time the rule change is minor so when developing this years car that can be applied to next years car it is also beneficial for next years car. So flow conditioning development on the front wing should not be a waste of time.

This kind of narrative good be part of psychological warfare: the mercs are unbeatable!

The rule change for next year has actually turned out to be a pretty major one.

A 10% reduction in downforce from areas of the car that are critical in producing efficient downforce.

No moor floor slots. A significantly reduced floor surface area. A change in the fins around the rear brake ducts. And a reduction in the length of the vertical diffuser slats. (Just to name a few.)

The floor/diffuser are vital areas, especially for high-rake cars. To be able to claw back that downforce efficiently is going to be a major aerodynamic engineering challenge.

I too thought it was going to be worthwhile to just continuing developing '20 cars all year back when I wasn't paying much attention to the '21 rules changes. But now I think the scope of the changes are almost on par with the FW/barge board/RW tweaks of '19.

Instead of such stupid last minute changes couldn't they just build a tire compound one step harder than the current C1 and mandate two stops at all the races where tire wear was marginal? That way smaller teams wouldn't have to focus any resources on 2021.

Great question. Would’ve been far more cost-effective than a completely new tire construction or the raft of ‘21 changes that are starting to look like they’ll rival the ‘19 changes in terms of scope. For 1 year.

Reading the link you posted, that’s the first time I’ve seen Toto acknowledge the scope of the changes in ‘21 are pretty major. Which makes sense considering the details we’re starting to get.

A few months ago, I was under the impression that the ‘21 changes were comprised of a mere reduction in floor width that could be overcome somewhat by tighter packaging. Then I saw the elimination of floor slots of all types, the rear brake fin clampdown, the diffuser slat height/length reductions, etc.

Hopefully Red Bull can troubleshoot around the weakening of the diffuser area caused by the reg changes. When they get that rear end sealed consistently and the car is balanced, it’s a beast in the corners.

[etusch]

Instead of such stupid last minute changes couldn't they just build a tire compound one step harder than the current C1 and mandate two stops at all the races where tire wear was marginal? That way smaller teams wouldn't have to focus any resources on 2021.

it is what normal people would do. only prelli would spent if this cause more spending. But they prefered to make all teams to work on new floor. It will affect teams which has best floor and less affect on who is not that good.
Tyres also has same affect on cars performance. Which car is working best with current tyres ( I think mercedes in this case) will be affected more if they change tyres. In 2004 Ferrari was dominant but with one tyre for whole race rule they found themself 3d in 2005, behind McLaren and Renault. But no matter who will be affected, if problem is with tyre, tyre must be changed.

[Big Tea]

Instead of such stupid last minute changes couldn't they just build a tire compound one step harder than the current C1 and mandate two stops at all the races where tire wear was marginal? That way smaller teams wouldn't have to focus any resources on 2021.

it is what normal people would do. only prelli would spent if this cause more spending. But they prefered to make all teams to work on new floor. It will affect teams which has best floor and less affect on who is not that good.
Tyres also has same affect on cars performance. Which car is working best with current tyres ( I think mercedes in this case) will be affected more if they change tyres. In 2004 Ferrari was dominant but with one tyre for whole race rule they found themself 3d in 2005, behind McLaren and Renault. But no matter who will be affected, if problem is with tyre, tyre must be changed.

Could they not also have got a similar result by reducing tyre with?
If the idea is to reduce how fast the cars corner, would narrower stiffer tyres of a harder compound have the same effect?

[etusch]

Instead of such stupid last minute changes couldn't they just build a tire compound one step harder than the current C1 and mandate two stops at all the races where tire wear was marginal? That way smaller teams wouldn't have to focus any resources on 2021.

it is what normal people would do. only prelli would spent if this cause more spending. But they prefered to make all teams to work on new floor. It will affect teams which has best floor and less affect on who is not that good.
Tyres also has same affect on cars performance. Which car is working best with current tyres ( I think mercedes in this case) will be affected more if they change tyres. In 2004 Ferrari was dominant but with one tyre for whole race rule they found themself 3d in 2005, behind McLaren and Renault. But no matter who will be affected, if problem is with tyre, tyre must be changed.

Could they not also have got a similar result by reducing tyre with?
If the idea is to reduce how fast the cars corner, would narrower stiffer tyres of a harder compound have the same effect?

I think they can do. If Fia wants more pit stop they can rule it. mandatory 2 pit stops. In fact I would prefer to see taking fuel at pits too.

[zibby43]

Gone will be the slots in the floor that help create the air buffer that protects airflow on the underside of the car from the turbulent air coming from the front wheels.



Also gone will be the angled holes just in front of the rear tires which help mitigate tire squirt. Teams will have to come up with a new solution to prevent the dirty air from rear tire information negatively impacting rear diffuser performance.

Diffuser performance is extremely critical for high-rake cars like the Red Bull, AT, etc.

Rear brake duct winglets will also be reduced in size:



And on top of all this, the diffuser slats have been chopped by 50mm for 2021

[etusch]

Red Bull says its preferred option for Formula 1 engines in 2022 is to take over the Honda project and run the power units itself.
With Honda having announced that it is to quit F1 at the end of 2021, Red Bull is having to weigh up what it does for a power supply longer term.


While Renault could be forced to supply Red Bull with engines as part of F1’s sporting regulations, the team's motorsport advisor Helmut Marko says that the Milton Keynes outfit is actually eyeing another option.

It says that, providing the FIA agrees to an engine freeze from the start of 2022, which means Red Bull would not have to worry with developing the power unit, then it could take over the entire Honda project.

Marko suggests that factory space available near its factory, plus the close proximity of Honda's current UK facilities, make such an option realistic.

Speaking to German channel Sport1, Marko said: “It’s a very complex subject. Just as complex as these engines are.

“We would favour, provided the talks with Honda are positive, that we take over the IP rights and everything that is necessary, to then prepare and deploy the engines ourselves in Milton Keynes.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/red- ... n=widget-1