General Honda F1 Topic

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
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Lock2nl
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Well, you made your point. Let us end this discussion and get on with our lives.

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ispano6
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tangodjango wrote:
10 Oct 2020, 11:11
This article mentions that Honda's annual budget is almost 400 Million $. I find that hard to believe. Ispano can you chime in with whether this figure is way off the mark or close to reality?

"Honda is believed to have been spending in excess of £300m a year on its F1 programme, despite finding limited avenues to transfer that technology to its automotive projects."

https://the-race.com/formula-1/what-fer ... s-f1-exit/
It's there or there abouts. Confirmed today but that isn't the reason Honda is leaving F1. Apparently the cost isn't the issue, it's that they have some of their best people on the F1 project and they need to allocate them to the road cars programs. It's not they haven't had road car projects to transfer the tech, Honda Sakura are simply low on engineering resources (brilliant ones, not average engineers) .
Marti_EF3 wrote:
09 Oct 2020, 19:12
I'd love synthetic fuels with carbon neutral emissions or even more cleaner. Personally I hate electrical vehicles. I don't see any fun on it. No sound, heavy as hell, and also much less durable than a good engine with good manteinance.
According to my source all EV tech is still stop gap be it BEV or FCEV. He says future vehicle tech will always be a hybrid and that biofuels will need to come sooner than later. Honda is dabbing in a number of battery options and for the short term EVs will be next, FCEV after that, and then bio/synthetic fuel hybrids. The reason being that BEV will have a finite amount of resources to be purposed for passenger vehicles and producing hydrogen fuel cells will be expensive. His stance is that demand for passenger vehicles will dwindle in general but bio/syntj fuels have more promise with regard to sustainability, and not necessarily to be green. To that end F1 will likely head toward higher biofuel composition. For me, more so than being carbon neutral, I think it's important to reduce the emissions that contribute to ground level ozone so in that respect EVs do have some benefits.

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ispano6
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nzjrs wrote:
07 Sep 2020, 12:48
I've looked quite a few times for Honda F1 merchandise, and can't seem to find anything decent. Can anyone share a link to the best they have found that one can buy?
The 2020 Honda F1 staff replica shirt and jacket is now available for sale in Japan. Overseas shipping will probably not be available from the web store. You will probably need to have someone buy it for you and have it shipped.
http://goods.honda.co.jp/shop/g/gZBE03HR210A01/
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tangodjango
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Found this really nice thread on Reddit about Honda pulling out and the Mugen takeover prospects. Maybe Ispano can add some additional commentary. Well worth a read with translations provided.
I just feel it's a great pity that Honda is pulling out just as they were reaching the position to battle for wins and championships. My first personal vehicle was a tiny Honda two wheeler so I feel attachment towards the brand as well as the devotion to perfectionism in the Japanese way of life.


"[Japanese Media Roundup] Is a Mugen deal really in the works? And other reactions to Honda's withdrawal



On a potential Mugen takeover
Oct. 9, 2020; Autosport Web

Masashi Yamamoto, Managing Director, Honda F1:

This is just a personal opinion, but if we could've asked Mugen to take over the program, then we wouldn't have pulled out in the first place. Surely the sheer complexity of the current PUs is common knowledge by now. Development is impossible without backup from HRD Sakura, and deploying the PU, including controlling it trackside, and working with a top team in general requires a certain degree of insight and expertise.

So asking the guys at Mugen to take over is not on the cards, and nothing concrete has been decided at this stage. It's a blank slate. Of course if Red Bull needs something from us we'll see how we could be of help, and we'll try our best to help them.

Honda's departure: reactions
Following are excerpts from 3 articles from major Japanese motorsport outlets

Oct. 3, 2020; Autosport Web

[Special Column: Honda's retreat from F1] Honda lets down countless motorsport fans; what Honda loses from their departure | Kunio Shibata, a long-time Japanese motorsports journalist

....I was surprised and angry as I listened to Honda's press conference announcing their retreat from F1. A retreat wasn't entirely unpredictable, but I never thought that they would actually do it. It seemed obvious that leaving F1 would prove a net negative.

What do they gain? The money they'd been spending in F1. And they'd be able to divert personnel to other departments....

...What will they lose? Put simply, our trust in Honda as a brand. By pulling out, Honda decisively disappointed numerous fans, Honda customers, and racing personnel at home and abroad. Their retreat at the end of 2008 had been a surprise as well, but at least the Lehman shock provided a desperate enough excuse (although it has to be said Renault persevered despite being hit harder than Honda). However, as soon as their performance recovered several years later, they came back to F1, and it was as if they'd already forgotten the fact that they pulled out. They even told us that they were in it for the long term.

But as it stands, they're pulling out after just 7 years--even shorter than their previous stint in the sport.

"We were able to fulfill our goal of winning"

What? Wasn't Honda's goal to be the undisputed champions at the pinnacle of motorsport? Inevitably social media was filled with anger and disappointment immediately after the press conference.

"Some criticism is to be expected" "it'll die down as time passes" Those who pushed through for a retreat are probably thinking along those lines. But the ramifications of what Honda has done here will surely come back at them, as deep, heavy blows....

...When they say they're aiming to be "Carbon Neutral by 2050," it almost sounds like a far sighted corporate decision. But surely those lofty long term goals and their F1 program could have coexisted if they tried hard enough.

But at the end of the day, Honda allowed themselves to be pushed over by those who were against F1 from the start. Hachigo painstakingly stressed that "Motorsports is part of Honda's DNA" while declaring that they'd "never return to F1;" to me, it was a pathetic sight to behold.

Oct. 10, 2020; Best Car web

Honda's sudden retreat from F1--the real reason isn't the environment | Tetsuo Tsugawa (former Benetton mechanic, another long time F1 pundit)

...In order to ensure their survival, they'll be pouring the F1 project's staff and resources into new technologies and vehicles...

That's what they say, but surely Honda has engineers outside of their F1 project; are they really suggesting that Honda's R&D is so understaffed that they need to enlist the help of the F1 staff?.....

.....In both 2000 and 2013, Honda announced their entry into F1 without establishing a concept, seemingly without doing any in-depth research; things like a clear concept and a roadmap for the project were tossed aside in favor of unproven optimism and pure happenstance.....

.....We F1 fans used to look up to Honda. But Honda's leaving, trampling on our admiring gaze yet again.

The biggest blow has to be to Red Bull. With a long term relationship with Honda in mind, they had let go of their relationship with Aston Martin. With Honda now gone, Aston Martin is now Racing Point's. If Honda's retreat crushed Red Bull's chances for success, and if they eventually end up withdrawing from the sport....the damage wrought to the sport by Honda's feckless foray into F1 would be incalculable.

Oct. 9, 2020; Sportiva

Does Honda's F1 retreat leave unfinished business? What rallying stock prices tell us about reality, and concerns for their future | Mineoki Yoneya (Full time F1 journo, known to be a bit of a Honda apologist at times--he was adamant that Mclaren were at least somewhat to blame during the wretched GP2 Engine/best chassis era)

.....Honda says they want to utilize the knowhow of their F1 engineers to develop the next generation of power units, to ultimately achieve their goal of being carbon neutral by 2050. Just like how Asagi revolutionized Kei vehicles with the N BOX, Honda is probably counting on the current crop of F1 engineers to develop an entirely new concept for mobility.

But would those engineers--many of whom joined because they wanted to work in F1--be able to find any motivation? More to the point, will the kind of talent capable of developing revolutionary concepts even be attracted to a Honda that's too sensible for F1?

What does the future hold if Honda no longer attracts the kind of talent that joins the company because they're bold enough to declare "F1 is Honda's DNA", and are replaced by those merely attracted to the stability and security of a large, sensible corporation? Well, that fate already befell the higher ups at Honda HQ. And that's why I'm disappointed and concerned about a future where Honda is no longer in F1, where F1 is lost from their DNA.....

.....the exhilaration and joy that Honda has given us thus far can't be changed. And they're sure to give us more in the remaining 14 months.

I believe that a true F1 fan, a true Honda fan should be grateful to what Honda has given us rather than lash out at them, and continue to back them fully as they complete what remains of their challenge. That would be the ultimate act of defiance against those who chose to abandon Honda's DNA."

Source : https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comme ... really_in/
Last edited by tangodjango on 14 Oct 2020, 12:03, edited 2 times in total.
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tangodjango
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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ispano6 wrote:
12 Oct 2020, 07:03
nzjrs wrote:
07 Sep 2020, 12:48
I've looked quite a few times for Honda F1 merchandise, and can't seem to find anything decent. Can anyone share a link to the best they have found that one can buy?
The 2020 Honda F1 staff replica shirt and jacket is now available for sale in Japan. Overseas shipping will probably not be available from the web store. You will probably need to have someone buy it for you and have it shipped.
http://goods.honda.co.jp/shop/g/gZBE03HR210A01/
http://goods.honda.co.jp/img/goods/L/ZBE03HR210A00.jpg
I wish the F1 gear was as nice as the Repsol Honda kit. They really had some iconic jackets. I guess the Red Bull dark blue doesn't work so well with the Honda red.
“Hamilton’s talent is perhaps even more than that of Ayrton or Schumacher or Fernando." - Rubens Barrichello

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ispano6
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Moving this over from the RB thread.
Snorked wrote:
13 Oct 2020, 23:57
People are really thinking Honda will hand over their engine to outsiders with Yamamoto saying Mugen isn't an option?

This same Honda who crushed and melted their downhill mountain bikes so nobody could get a hold of its gearbox. 😆

Red Bull will either pull out or go back to Renault.
While I don't think Sakura will go to that extent, I don't see the IP being sold off or given away. I asked my source and got an answer that Mugen taking over isn't completely out of the question but it would take a pretty big change of heart and introspection to make the moves that would allow that to happen. Since the decision has been made with some time to let it sink in, different options are being considered. If 2022 engines are frozen at the beginning of the season, the IP could be licensed, not sold. From now until end of 2021, depending on how convincing RBT can be to sway Honda brass from completely calling it quits, and whether young Honda engineers have a burning desire to fill the void that will be left when the experienced engineers are reallocated to the road cars program, how much knowledge-transfer is able to happen will determine the outcome. I still see a path for a possibility but it involves not just "all-Honda" which was a Honda Japan skunkworks effort but a global one that would include North Americas HPD. HRD Sakura needs to seriously look at the talent in the US and HPD also needs to reach out to HRD to offer support and a unified front. It might be a longshot but remember that Tanabe himself was brought over from the Indy car program and Ted Klaus's successor David Salters is a former F1 head of ICE and engine development at both Ferrari and MB. If Honda recognizes the gravity of the hole left behind in F1 and their motorsports influence on automobile sales which it does in fact influence, a successful 2021 campaign may be what it takes for Honda brass to decide supporting RedBull through non-Sakura personnel.

Believe it or not, Nobuhiko Kawamoto who was a brilliant F1 engineer who later became president of Honda used to design the F1 engines during his free time after work. Before becoming President and CEO, as Head of R&D he brought Honda back to F2 and had successful consecutive championships from 1981 to 1983 with Ralt-Honda. That car, pictured below, was designed by my source who had late night drinking discussions with Kawamoto (the CAD drawing is a scan of the actual original design saved in his portfolio). His opinion is that Hachigo may go down as the person who causes the fall of Honda (for being narrow-minded and disconnected from the global sentiment and influence of Global Honda). But to be fair, Kawamoto did something similar and had to pull out Honda from F1 to save the company in 1992 and split up Honda into 4 global entities with autonomy over their regions. Hachigo won't be President forever and who knows, one of the 5 geniuses that were tapped for the Honda F1 skunkworks may end up being President and bring Honda back to the pinnacle of motorsport if they are enticed by Ross Brawn and his invitation to Honda to be involved in the FIA working group for the 2026 power unit (God bless him). With positive motivation and positive support from fans around the world (instead of cynical remarks and insults), those within Honda may cause a change of heart. That is what I'll be pushing for and hopefully the Honda lifers will impart the next generation with the "never give up, no race no life" attitude. Kawamoto was hugely respected by American Honda employees. Asaki and Kakuda and the other 3 have that potential in my opinion. With that said, there may still be a hiatus and RBT may be stuck with year old PUs in 2022 that are stock piled from 2021 but where there is a will there is a way - there has always been personnel who devoted themselves to extra-curricular activities within Honda in secret without telling the upper-brass and trained-up and exposed willing engineers and technicians to participate in grass-roots style skunkworks activities. This also happens at HPD in North America.
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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ispano6 wrote:
12 Oct 2020, 07:03
nzjrs wrote:
07 Sep 2020, 12:48
I've looked quite a few times for Honda F1 merchandise, and can't seem to find anything decent. Can anyone share a link to the best they have found that one can buy?
The 2020 Honda F1 staff replica shirt and jacket is now available for sale in Japan. Overseas shipping will probably not be available from the web store. You will probably need to have someone buy it for you and have it shipped.
http://goods.honda.co.jp/shop/g/gZBE03HR210A01/
http://goods.honda.co.jp/img/goods/L/ZBE03HR210A00.jpg
How can I get this in Canada I really want one

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etusch
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Former Formula 1 driver Paul di Resta said Pierre Gasly will not be able to return to Red Bull Racing despite his strong performance this year.
Gasly, who started competing for Red Bull last year, lost his place to Alexander Albon in the middle of the season due to his failure to perform as expected and returned to the sub-team, which was AlphaTauri today but was Toro Rosso at the time.


Continuing with AlphaTauri this year, Gasly has shown impressive races, while Albon, on the contrary, is struggling to achieve the expected results at Red Bull.

Although allegations that Gasly will return to Red Bull after a surprise victory in Italy gained momentum, Di Resta said in a statement he made after the race on Sunday, that the sensations he received indicated that this would not happen.

On the Sky F1 show, 2016 world champion Nico Rosberg said Gasly "had a great season and should move on to Red Bull". Against Di Resta's opinion, Rosberg said, "Then you know something we don't know? Why isn't Gasly in that car next year?" said.

So Di Resta said, "I'm only speaking to whispers heard in the paddock. Somehow it upset a few people in Red Bull." said.

Google translate with any touch


https://tr.motorsport.com/f1/news/di-re ... n=widget-1

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The Power of Dreams!

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PlatinumZealot
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etusch wrote:
14 Oct 2020, 12:34
Former Formula 1 driver Paul di Resta said Pierre Gasly will not be able to return to Red Bull Racing despite his strong performance this year.
Gasly, who started competing for Red Bull last year, lost his place to Alexander Albon in the middle of the season due to his failure to perform as expected and returned to the sub-team, which was AlphaTauri today but was Toro Rosso at the time.


Continuing with AlphaTauri this year, Gasly has shown impressive races, while Albon, on the contrary, is struggling to achieve the expected results at Red Bull.

Although allegations that Gasly will return to Red Bull after a surprise victory in Italy gained momentum, Di Resta said in a statement he made after the race on Sunday, that the sensations he received indicated that this would not happen.

On the Sky F1 show, 2016 world champion Nico Rosberg said Gasly "had a great season and should move on to Red Bull". Against Di Resta's opinion, Rosberg said, "Then you know something we don't know? Why isn't Gasly in that car next year?" said.

So Di Resta said, "I'm only speaking to whispers heard in the paddock. Somehow it upset a few people in Red Bull." said.

Google translate with any touch


https://tr.motorsport.com/f1/news/di-re ... n=widget-1
Hmm. It is expected that once the Toro Rosso drivers mature they are to look for seats on their own if none is available at RedBull. Essentially, Gasly has gone the full course of the young driver and top team programme and their is not much else there for him. RedBull has done their part. If Franz speaks up, he will stay. If Franz is with Marko Gasly will be let go.
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Wouter
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Could someone who speak Japanese say what Koji Watanabe, Chief Director of Brand Communications is saying exactly in this article?

https://www.as-web.jp/f1/635338?all

Google Tr:
Mr. Koji Watanabe, the General Manager of Honda's Brand Communication Division, attended the remote conference held on Friday the 16th.

'At the moment we haven't received any requests from Mr. Marco, but we've heard a level of talk that he's looking at using the Honda power unit. We have a good relationship (with Red Bull) and we want to work with them to make it easier for them to work with us. If we receive a request from Red Bull, we will consider it, but at the moment we are not considering anything.
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ispano6
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Wouter wrote:
16 Oct 2020, 14:19
Could someone who speak Japanese say what Koji Watanabe, Chief Director of Brand Communications is saying exactly in this article?

https://www.as-web.jp/f1/635338?all

Google Tr:
Mr. Koji Watanabe, the General Manager of Honda's Brand Communication Division, attended the remote conference held on Friday the 16th.

'At the moment we haven't received any requests from Mr. Marco, but we've heard a level of talk that he's looking at using the Honda power unit. We have a good relationship (with Red Bull) and we want to work with them to make it easier for them to work with us. If we receive a request from Red Bull, we will consider it, but at the moment we are not considering anything.
The beginning of the article starts off by pointing out that the while the goal is to be carbon neutral by 2050, there is also the goal to have 2/3rds of all automobile sales to be electrified.

What he said specifically aside from what you've translated already:
"It's not that we are only pursuing carbon neutrality. Society is moving toward sustainability, and having experienced corona virus, the urgency(speed) in which it's heading has also increased.

It's not that we've changed what we were doing, but that the speed in which we were heading in that direction was not good enough. In addition to carbon neutrality as one aspect of sustainability, there is also the need to stop carbon emissions for all 4-wheel and 2-wheel vehicle's powertrains, otherwise we cannot meet the expectations of society nor can we lead in that field. The people who currently work on the F1 project are THE pros in that region(field), and they no longer will be available to work on F1 because of the need to have them work on the future power unit and energy laboratory. It is not that we've lost interest in F1 or that F1 is no good.

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ispano6 wrote:
17 Oct 2020, 03:19
The beginning of the article starts off by pointing out that the while the goal is to be carbon neutral by 2050, there is also the goal to have 2/3rds of all automobile sales to be electrified.

What he said specifically aside from what you've translated already:
"It's not that we are only pursuing carbon neutrality. Society is moving toward sustainability, and having experienced corona virus, the urgency(speed) in which it's heading has also increased.

It's not that we've changed what we were doing, but that the speed in which we were heading in that direction was not good enough. In addition to carbon neutrality as one aspect of sustainability, there is also the need to stop carbon emissions for all 4-wheel and 2-wheel vehicle's powertrains, otherwise we cannot meet the expectations of society nor can we lead in that field. The people who currently work on the F1 project are THE pros in that region(field), and they no longer will be available to work on F1 because of the need to have them work on the future power unit and energy laboratory. It is not that we've lost interest in F1 or that F1 is no good.
Thanks @Ispano.
Btw, this time GT translated my quote correctly?
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ispano6
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Wouter wrote:
17 Oct 2020, 08:24
Thanks @Ispano.
Btw, this time GT translated my quote correctly?
If what you pasted wasn't modified yes that paragraph was pretty close though it was also relatively easy sentences to translate directly. The other paragraphs that I translated would probably have read strange with GT. Some words used would not have made sense in the way the grammar is laid out. GT could also be getting better with machine learning factoring in surrounding words to determine the context and phrasing of the text.

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Wouter
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ispano6 wrote:
17 Oct 2020, 17:14
Wouter wrote:
17 Oct 2020, 08:24
Thanks @Ispano.
Btw, this time GT translated my quote correctly?
.
If what you pasted wasn't modified yes that paragraph was pretty close though it was also relatively easy sentences to translate directly. The other paragraphs that I translated would probably have read strange with GT. Some words used would not have made sense in the way the grammar is laid out. GT could also be getting better with machine learning factoring in surrounding words to determine the context and phrasing of the text.
It wasn't modified, but the rest was very hard to read with GT. :( Thanks again @Ispano.
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