Red Bull RB16

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter does not belong here.
wesley123
wesley123
231
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 4:55 pm

Re: Red Bull RB16

Post

ryaan2904 wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:06 am
wesley123 wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:14 pm
ryaan2904 wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:17 am
1. Yes exactly, but they are losing energy by directing some air to the underside which could have been energizing the created vortices. I also did mention you lose a little energy, so yes, whether its an advantage or a disadvantage is debatable.

2. High rake increases the distance between the diffuser at the back and the ground. So, especially at low speeds, you have to work to speed up the airflow at the back. But that's still manageable, the major issue is to prevent air entering from the sides into the underbody. High rake cars suffer much more from this than low rake cars. Air entering from the sides will slow the air down and thus reduce diffuser efficiency. Hence floor sealing is even more important for Redbull.
Redbull and Mercedes both work with two very different underbody philosophies. Redbull generates downforce by increasing Mass flow in the underbody. Mercedes generate downforce by squeezing and speeding up already existing air in the underbody.
You're trying to simplify it a bit too much, just like is said in the article you posted after this. Both solutions have their gains and losses, and something as rake isn't the holy grail; there is a whole car to it.

To say that Mercedes would lose less from this is unreasonable, as in the end they converge around similar solutions. Outside of that, there is literally no reason to help Mercedes to begin with. F1 would gain quite a lot in slowing down Mercedes.

The simple fact of the matter is that currently, Mercedes simply is the better team. The FIA isn't helping anyone here.
Yes, I may be missing things here but "Mercedes simply is the better team" doesn't exactly help me see them :lol:
Let's be honest here; There'll be no way at all to prove you to be wrong, simply by the way that the situation currently is.
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender

User avatar
godlameroso
432
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:27 pm
Location: Miami FL

Re: Red Bull RB16

Post

I'm not sold that Mercedes has the best chassis, the RB16 is faster in slow corners, implying more downforce. Especially in long sweeping corners that don't require much braking.

We cannot conclude that RBR16B will be worse off with the regulation change. Consider the Honda engine of next year will be even more compact than the one in the car now, and Mercedes rumored intake being bulkier could set them back chassis wise. I say this because the rear wing will be more important and the intake and engine cover affect flow to the rear wing.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

User avatar
Wouter
422
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Red Bull RB16

Post


ispano6
ispano6
251
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:56 pm
Location: my playseat

Re: Red Bull RB16

Post

Red Bull's Turkey updates.
Front wing that only Max raced, revised exhaust breather pipes and diffuser.

Max wing
Image

Alex wing
Image

Cape update
Image

Exhaust layout change
Image

Diffuser changes
Image

From https://us.motorsport.com/f1/news/red-b ... r/4913209/

holeindalip
holeindalip
14
Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:58 am
Location: Decatur,IL USA

Re: Red Bull RB16

Post

godlameroso wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:59 pm
I'm not sold that Mercedes has the best chassis, the RB16 is faster in slow corners, implying more downforce. Especially in long sweeping corners that don't require much braking.

We cannot conclude that RBR16B will be worse off with the regulation change. Consider the Honda engine of next year will be even more compact than the one in the car now, and Mercedes rumored intake being bulkier could set them back chassis wise. I say this because the rear wing will be more important and the intake and engine cover affect flow to the rear wing.
Isn’t that why they run high rake to keep the rear wing up higher and during high speed the car squats, or do you believe the Red Bull has a massive mechanical grip over Mercedes? I would think that if they had a massive mechanical grip advantage over Mercedes tire wear would be much more?

User avatar
godlameroso
432
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:27 pm
Location: Miami FL

Re: Red Bull RB16

Post

holeindalip wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:05 am
godlameroso wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:59 pm
I'm not sold that Mercedes has the best chassis, the RB16 is faster in slow corners, implying more downforce. Especially in long sweeping corners that don't require much braking.

We cannot conclude that RBR16B will be worse off with the regulation change. Consider the Honda engine of next year will be even more compact than the one in the car now, and Mercedes rumored intake being bulkier could set them back chassis wise. I say this because the rear wing will be more important and the intake and engine cover affect flow to the rear wing.
Isn’t that why they run high rake to keep the rear wing up higher and during high speed the car squats, or do you believe the Red Bull has a massive mechanical grip over Mercedes? I would think that if they had a massive mechanical grip advantage over Mercedes tire wear would be much more?
Depends on the aero balance, if the aero balance is towards oversteer because it lets you carry more speed in the mid corner phase, then the rear will slide around more than the front causing more tire wear than if the car is more balanced in general.

I always thought rake was more for the floor than the rear wing, although the rear wing and floor work together, so who knows, maybe you're right.

Mugello Germany and Imola had the type of corners that aren't really penalized by having a bit of entry oversteer. Because the corners require strong change of direction, and understeer hurts you because it forces you to brake sooner. And also because the exits were in a speed range where the diffuser could really start working. They had a small aero advantage and were pretty close to Mercedes. The recent updates have only strengthened their low speed advantage, which they will once again lose and spend half the season clawing back. #-o
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

zibby43
zibby43
440
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:16 am

Re: Red Bull RB16

Post

godlameroso wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:59 pm
I'm not sold that Mercedes has the best chassis, the RB16 is faster in slow corners, implying more downforce. Especially in long sweeping corners that don't require much braking.
Slow corner performance isn't really about peak downforce. It's about mechanical grip and setup.

With respect to general chassis performance, Mercedes was fastest in all types of corners up until the engine mode TD.

An example from Spain 2020, which is obviously one of the benchmarks for a chassis, because of the various types of corners:

Image

After the TD, Mercedes made compromises to their setup to trade off cornering speed for more pace in a straightline. There was a pretty good technical article about this (from FUnoAnalisiTecnica) which I posted in a thread on here a while back.

With the exception of 1 race, Mercedes has been the class of the field with respect to tire management this year, implying a tremendous amount of downforce. The more downforce you have, the more you flatten the tire and generate temperature evenly across the surface of the tread, which not only helps with performance, but with tire wear as well.

Finally, Mercedes stopped developing their car a while ago, while Red Bull has obviously forged on.

User avatar
Moore77
27
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:03 am

Re: Red Bull RB16

Post

godlameroso wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:37 am
Mugello Germany and Imola had the type of corners that aren't really penalized by having a bit of entry oversteer.
What exactly is "entry oversteer"? Understeer on entry is understandable, but "entry oversteer"?
Gangdom: Pom, Tom, Loverboy, Boomer.

e30ernest
e30ernest
12
Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:47 am

Re: Red Bull RB16

Post

Moore77 wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:43 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:37 am
Mugello Germany and Imola had the type of corners that aren't really penalized by having a bit of entry oversteer.
What exactly is "entry oversteer"? Understeer on entry is understandable, but "entry oversteer"?
Probably a tendency to swing the back out under braking or acceleration when the rear tires gets unloaded.

User avatar
jjn9128
401
Joined: Tue May 02, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: Red Bull RB16

Post

Moore77 wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:43 pm
What exactly is "entry oversteer"? Understeer on entry is understandable, but "entry oversteer"?
Comes with an unstable rear axle. The back wants to swing round on the initial turn in. E.g. Locked rear axle would result in entry oversteer.
#aerogandalf
"There is one big friend. It is downforce. And once you have this it’s a big mate and it’s helping a lot." Robert Kubica

User avatar
SiLo
92
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 6:09 pm

Re: Red Bull RB16

Post

jjn9128 wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:51 pm
Moore77 wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:43 pm
What exactly is "entry oversteer"? Understeer on entry is understandable, but "entry oversteer"?
Comes with an unstable rear axle. The back wants to swing round on the initial turn in. E.g. Locked rear axle would result in entry oversteer.
Basically the worst kind of oversteer as well. Exit is easier to control, but entry oversteer means the drive has no confidence turning into the corner so will either go in slower, or compromise his line to a more geometric shape with less steering variance.
Felipe Baby!

User avatar
godlameroso
432
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:27 pm
Location: Miami FL

Re: Red Bull RB16

Post

zibby43 wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:24 am
godlameroso wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:59 pm
I'm not sold that Mercedes has the best chassis, the RB16 is faster in slow corners, implying more downforce. Especially in long sweeping corners that don't require much braking.
Slow corner performance isn't really about peak downforce. It's about mechanical grip and setup.

With respect to general chassis performance, Mercedes was fastest in all types of corners up until the engine mode TD.

An example from Spain 2020, which is obviously one of the benchmarks for a chassis, because of the various types of corners:

https://www.formula1.com/content/dam/fo ... /image.jpg

After the TD, Mercedes made compromises to their setup to trade off cornering speed for more pace in a straightline. There was a pretty good technical article about this (from FUnoAnalisiTecnica) which I posted in a thread on here a while back.

With the exception of 1 race, Mercedes has been the class of the field with respect to tire management this year, implying a tremendous amount of downforce. The more downforce you have, the more you flatten the tire and generate temperature evenly across the surface of the tread, which not only helps with performance, but with tire wear as well.

Finally, Mercedes stopped developing their car a while ago, while Red Bull has obviously forged on.

Downforce matters for every single corner except the Lowes hairpin in Monaco. Also don't forget how fast RB has developed their car. It's still entry oversteer, but the rear end is much more consistent than it used to be.

Downforce puts more load on the tire, and keeps the car from sliding if the aero is balanced, if it isn't then one axle will suffer more than the other.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

User avatar
jjn9128
401
Joined: Tue May 02, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: Red Bull RB16

Post

SiLo wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:54 pm
jjn9128 wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:51 pm
Moore77 wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:43 pm
What exactly is "entry oversteer"? Understeer on entry is understandable, but "entry oversteer"?
Comes with an unstable rear axle. The back wants to swing round on the initial turn in. E.g. Locked rear axle would result in entry oversteer.
Basically the worst kind of oversteer as well. Exit is easier to control, but entry oversteer means the drive has no confidence turning into the corner so will either go in slower, or compromise his line to a more geometric shape with less steering variance.
Yeah exit oversteer can be controlled/tamed as it happens with the right foot.
godlameroso wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:06 pm
[quote=zibby43 post_id=940182 time=<a href="tel:1606119884">1606119884</a> user_id=37123]
[quote=godlameroso post_id=939897 time=<a href="tel:1605805165">1605805165</a> user_id=9250]
I'm not sold that Mercedes has the best chassis, the RB16 is faster in slow corners, implying more downforce. Especially in long sweeping corners that don't require much braking.
Slow corner performance isn't really about peak downforce. It's about mechanical grip and setup.

With respect to general chassis performance, Mercedes was fastest in all types of corners up until the engine mode TD.

An example from Spain 2020, which is obviously one of the benchmarks for a chassis, because of the various types of corners:

https://www.formula1.com/content/dam/fo ... /image.jpg

After the TD, Mercedes made compromises to their setup to trade off cornering speed for more pace in a straightline. There was a pretty good technical article about this (from FUnoAnalisiTecnica) which I posted in a thread on here a while back.

With the exception of 1 race, Mercedes has been the class of the field with respect to tire management this year, implying a tremendous amount of downforce. The more downforce you have, the more you flatten the tire and generate temperature evenly across the surface of the tread, which not only helps with performance, but with tire wear as well.

Finally, Mercedes stopped developing their car a while ago, while Red Bull has obviously forged on.
[/quote]


Downforce matters for every single corner except the Lowes hairpin in Monaco. Also don't forget how fast RB has developed their car. It's still entry oversteer, but the rear end is much more consistent than it used to be.

Downforce puts more load on the tire, and keeps the car from sliding if the aero is balanced, if it isn't then one axle will suffer more than the other.
[/quote]

It was back in the 80s when Prost noted this as a driver. In the latest Kyle engineers (having just left merc) he estimates an f1 car performance in a corner. You can work back and the CzS is ~8.3 or Cz>5 depending on frontal area. That's exceeding the car weight at ~135kph/85mph.
#aerogandalf
"There is one big friend. It is downforce. And once you have this it’s a big mate and it’s helping a lot." Robert Kubica

User avatar
godlameroso
432
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:27 pm
Location: Miami FL

Re: Red Bull RB16

Post

To add to the previous point, McLaren has always been kind on its tires because the car is well balanced and easy to drive. The Renault is more difficult because they added oversteer. Whereas before, it too was a well balanced car that was easy to drive.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

User avatar
Big Tea
134
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:57 pm

Re: Red Bull RB16

Post

Moore77 wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:43 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:37 am
Mugello Germany and Imola had the type of corners that aren't really penalized by having a bit of entry oversteer.
What exactly is "entry oversteer"? Understeer on entry is understandable, but "entry oversteer"?
I took it to mean that when the power was lifted off it upset the balance into less grip.
But as most here (should ) know, I am not big on handling technics
We are standing on the shoulders of Giants. So watch your feet.