Next Steps In Safety

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Just_a_fan
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Re: Next Steps In Safety

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What is required is a solid barrier that has freedom to move away from the track. A steel sheet mounted on deformable supports, for example, or concrete blocks on a granular surface that allows it to move when pushed. In both cases, the chances of rebound are reduced because the surface moves in the direction of the impact and is non-elastic.

The SAFER system does this, in effect.

Both systems are effectively self regulating depending on the impact speed as they both move with the impact proportionally to the impact. Short of an active system, there is no way to increase movement with the square of the impact velocity (and thus match the various kinetic energy involved with speed (a square relationship).
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

smellybeard
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Re: Next Steps In Safety

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 11:44 pm
What is required is a solid barrier that has freedom to move away from the track. A steel sheet mounted on deformable supports, for example, or concrete blocks on a granular surface that allows it to move when pushed. In both cases, the chances of rebound are reduced because the surface moves in the direction of the impact and is non-elastic.

The SAFER system does this, in effect.

Both systems are effectively self regulating depending on the impact speed as they both move with the impact proportionally to the impact. Short of an active system, there is no way to increase movement with the square of the impact velocity (and thus match the various kinetic energy involved with speed (a square relationship).
Layers of free standing concrete barriers could do that. The inertia of the concrete slows the car bit by bit as each layer is encountered in turn. Link the blocks in each layer.

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nzjrs
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Re: Next Steps In Safety

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(occasional reminder this is the real world with economic constraints and that an increasingly expensive barrier - aka cheaper track design means we race in Europe only on tracks that asymptotically approach Paul Ricard)

Jolle
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Re: Next Steps In Safety

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nzjrs wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:06 am
(occasional reminder this is the real world with economic constraints and that an increasingly expensive barrier - aka cheaper track design means we race in Europe only on tracks that asymptotically approach Paul Ricard)
F1 is wealthy and with the new cost cap even wealthier. A few million to improve all straights is nothing compared to the multi billion company it is, especially when with that few million a fatality can be prevented (no investor wants their prize possessions to die).

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nzjrs
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Re: Next Steps In Safety

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Jolle wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:13 am
nzjrs wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:06 am
(occasional reminder this is the real world with economic constraints and that an increasingly expensive barrier - aka cheaper track design means we race in Europe only on tracks that asymptotically approach Paul Ricard)
F1 is wealthy and with the new cost cap even wealthier. A few million to improve all straights is nothing compared to the multi billion company it is, especially when with that few million a fatality can be prevented (no investor wants their prize possessions to die).
F1 is arguably wealthy, but is your average track promoter? Who is getting squeezed?

Jolle
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Re: Next Steps In Safety

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nzjrs wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:15 am
Jolle wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:13 am
nzjrs wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:06 am
(occasional reminder this is the real world with economic constraints and that an increasingly expensive barrier - aka cheaper track design means we race in Europe only on tracks that asymptotically approach Paul Ricard)
F1 is wealthy and with the new cost cap even wealthier. A few million to improve all straights is nothing compared to the multi billion company it is, especially when with that few million a fatality can be prevented (no investor wants their prize possessions to die).
F1 is arguably wealthy, but is your average track promoter? Who is getting squeezed?

Getting a GP means you have to pay tens of millions just for the licence. A few barriers are peanuts. Why do you think (before COVID) there were so many GP’s in strange places? Money isn’t the object.

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nzjrs
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Re: Next Steps In Safety

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Jolle wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:19 am
nzjrs wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:15 am
Jolle wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:13 am


F1 is wealthy and with the new cost cap even wealthier. A few million to improve all straights is nothing compared to the multi billion company it is, especially when with that few million a fatality can be prevented (no investor wants their prize possessions to die).
F1 is arguably wealthy, but is your average track promoter? Who is getting squeezed?

Getting a GP means you have to pay tens of millions just for the licence. A few barriers are peanuts. Why do you think (before COVID) there were so many GP’s in strange places? Money isn’t the object.
Why? Because short term governments borrow from the future for a 3 year sportwashing deal that they don't have to pay for. Money isn't the object in this case, visibility it. You've said before you are all socjus watrior, so you get this?

Those promoters that are in it for the long haul have the least disposable income. This is not surprising.

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Sieper
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Re: Next Steps In Safety

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This thread is supposed to be about safer racing. Please don’t make it about why we cannot have safer racing. Let’s make that a separate topic. The halo was also quite expensive if you take into consideration all the discussion, testing of different options etc. It saved a few lives already, or at least helped with that. Not saying your points aren’t valid but if you only talk about why things cannot happen they will never happen. I think these barriers need to be safer. The accident wasn’t that freak and the outcome could so easily have been much worse.
Just a personal interest, a Family recreating a WW2 May 1940 Dutch warbird from scratch: https://www.facebook.com/FlyingFokkerD21/

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nzjrs
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Re: Next Steps In Safety

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Sieper wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:46 am
This thread is supposed to be about safer racing. Please don’t make it about why we cannot have safer racing. Let’s make that a separate topic. The halo was also quite expensive if you take into consideration all the discussion, testing of different options etc. It saved a few lives already, or at least helped with that. Not saying your points aren’t valid but if you only talk about why things cannot happen they will never happen. I think these barriers need to be safer. The accident wasn’t that freak and the outcome could so easily have been much worse.
I don't fully disagree with your plea, but engineering is the optimal solution among constraints. We should not ignore physics no more that we should ignore economics or defensive risk analysis.

Do no harm is our new null hypothesis and let's make a flashing led marshmallow barrier is an engineering proposition to be evaluated.

smellybeard
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Re: Next Steps In Safety

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nzjrs wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:54 am

I don't fully disagree with your plea, but engineering is the optimal solution among constraints.
I disagree. Modifying driver behaviour is the optimal solution. No costs whatsoever.

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nzjrs
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Re: Next Steps In Safety

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smellybeard wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:22 am
nzjrs wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:54 am

I don't fully disagree with your plea, but engineering is the optimal solution among constraints.
I disagree. Modifying driver behaviour is the optimal solution. No costs whatsoever.
FWIW that's part of engineering for me (drivers are a coupled part of the system). The costs are also whatever the costs will be.

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adrianjordan
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Re: Next Steps In Safety

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Coming back to fire response, I liked the suggestion of Fire Response Vehicles.

Perhaps high powered Estate cars with a driver and fire officer in them with a tank in the back of foam/powder whichever F1 uses that is propelled through a roof mounted system controlled by the fire officer inside the car - so the nozzle can be directed with a joystick for example - and then it also has portable fire extinguishers. The crew could be wearing the kind of fireproof kit worn by fire crews the world over.

The cars could be provided by the FIA as with the medical car, so no cost to circuits.

Maybe I'm going overboard, but in my professional capacity, I hate incidents involving fire!!!
Bring on the EV revolution!!

Jolle
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Re: Next Steps In Safety

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adrianjordan wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:54 am
Coming back to fire response, I liked the suggestion of Fire Response Vehicles.

Perhaps high powered Estate cars with a driver and fire officer in them with a tank in the back of foam/powder whichever F1 uses that is propelled through a roof mounted system controlled by the fire officer inside the car - so the nozzle can be directed with a joystick for example - and then it also has portable fire extinguishers. The crew could be wearing the kind of fireproof kit worn by fire crews the world over.

The cars could be provided by the FIA as with the medical car, so no cost to circuits.

Maybe I'm going overboard, but in my professional capacity, I hate incidents involving fire!!!
There are already well equipped fire stations all across the track, with trained firemen in full gear (and a few fire trucks). They are marked by a orange barrier. These firemen were on scene within seconds when Grosjean crashed and can be seen on the picture when he climbed out. A C63 could take at least two minutes to do a lap, if it’s heavy with a few firemen and a few hundred kilos of equipment even more.

Just_a_fan
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Re: Next Steps In Safety

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Jolle wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:13 am
There are already well equipped fire stations all across the track, with trained firemen in full gear (and a few fire trucks). They are marked by a orange barrier. These firemen were on scene within seconds when Grosjean crashed and can be seen on the picture when he climbed out. A C63 could take at least two minutes to do a lap, if it’s heavy with a few firemen and a few hundred kilos of equipment even more.
They use more than one medical car and they would use more than one fire car. Having a number placed around the circuit would be a useful back up of the existing fire marshals and brings the benefit of a lot of extinguisher being available in a short time.

In the Grosjean incident, if that car had been a fire car then they'd have dumped a couple of hundred litres of fire extinguisher on the car in a couple of seconds. The marshals and the medical car did a great job but if Grosjean hadn't been able to self extricate, we'd be talking about a fatality. A trapped driver needs the fire put out, not just a hand held extinguisher used to push flames away from him for a few seconds as with the Grosjean incident.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Diesel
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Re: Next Steps In Safety

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smellybeard wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 11:25 pm
Diesel wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:53 pm
Perhaps on public roads, but not on F1 tracks.
Sorry boss, F1 tracks are part of the same universe and subject to the same laws of physics as public roads.
You're being needlessly obtuse, as is evident by your other posts. I never questioned how the laws of physics work, your original assertion was:
it would never distort enough to absorb an impact safely.
A distorting steel barrier is not a safe way to absorb an impact in Formula 1.
"Unbelievable how silly this Formula 1 is these days, with this stupid overtakes."
—Sebastian Vettel, 2012 US GP