2020 Sakhir Grand Prix - Sakhir, Dec 04 - 06

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Re: 2020 Sakhir Grand Prix - Sakhir, Dec 04 - 06

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zibby43 wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:33 am
foxmulder_ms wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 1:16 am
ringo wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 8:18 pm
I feel bad for bottas, but i wont say from this one race that russel is the better driver. Russel was on a high for this race, and Bottas let Russel get into his head and he fluffed the race. The fear of being compared, and possibly the pressure for him to try and blow russel out of the water is what done him in.
I would like to see both race again for abudahbi, this time with bottas being his usual cool coffee sipping self.
He did poorly this race, poorer than usual. Russel did what he had to do, but at the same time i do think Bottas would have caught him. This race is akin to so many new kids on the block races like hamilton vs alonso, vettel vs riciardo, etc. The incumbent usually lets the new guy with nothing to lose get inside his head and end up performing worse than they should.

100%.

Russel did a very good start and raced really well *but* he couldn't shake Bottas. Bottas was within 2-3 seconds all the time then undercut worked 3-4 labs to increase the delta to 8 seconds. And when he passed Bottas during the race, Bottas was on 20 labs older hard vs new mediums so it was expected. Frankly, I don't understand why people are hyped this much either for or against him.
Even Toto and Bottas' own race engineer knocked Bottas' performance.

Wolff: "I need to talk with [Valtteri] and his crew – but yeah, he did not shine today."

Bottas' race engineer: "We need to be a lot better than this."

That surprised me, because Toto usually protects Bottas after poor performances. That's the harshest I've seen Toto speak about Bottas publicly.

I agree that being stuck on the old Hard tires made Bottas' performance look worse, but Bottas' bottled the start for a second consecutive week. That's becoming a trend. He also couldn't switch on the tires after the Safety Car. In general, poor race starts and poor tire management in the race are becoming trends.

I've been the first to credit Bottas for his ability to consistently stay close (and sometimes finish ahead) in quali. Those performances cannot be diminished. But after several years, he hasn't made the progress I expected in the race.

And it's not just Russell's performance in isolation that was impressive, it was the context of coming in on short notice, having to learn the car, not fitting in the car (no proper seat, no proper boots, being battered by the cockpit, etc.), and performing at that level on a brand new track (despite the obstacles), that made it so impressive.

Bottas could've wiped the floor with George in qualifying and nailed the race start and no one would be having these conversations, but he squandered a golden opportunity to step in and take over the team.
Bottas will never take over the team. Toto is not stupid he knows very well Bottas is a number 2, maybe the best number 2 but a number 2 all the same. If Lewis retires he'll move heaven and earth to get the best on the grid into the car (whether that's Russel or someone else like Verstappen/Leclerc) especially if they ace the 2022 regulations too.
“Hamilton’s talent is perhaps even more than that of Ayrton or Schumacher or Fernando." - Rubens Barrichello

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Re: 2020 Sakhir Grand Prix - Sakhir, Dec 04 - 06

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e30ernest wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:19 am
Moore77 wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 8:05 am
e30ernest wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 6:05 am


Ricciardo also beat Vettel so.... He also beat Verstappen on 2016 (though Max didn't have a full season with Red Bull) and 2017.

He lost to Max on 2018 but he also had more retirements (8 vs Max's 3) and just counting the points on the races they both finished in Ric actually finished with more points (158 vs 144). I'd say they are closer in overall performance IMO.
As for 2018, did you consider that fact that, in almost all those Ric's retirements, he was behind Max? If Ric didn't have those retirements, the gap would have been less. He wouldn't have overtaken Max in standings.
Similar story in 2017. Ric was better that year in races, but thoroughly outqualified by Max. So Ric got outqualified 2 years in a row and outraced in 2018. That doesn't say, it was a even.
I think on 2018, there were also extenuating circumstances that affected Ricciardo's performance. All those DNFs, coupled with all those qualifying penalties those DNFs caused and the fact that he announced his move to Renault as early as August would have all had an effect on his motivation and team support.

That said, of his DNFs 2- 6 in Max's favor, but it wasn't cut and dry too (because of those penalties):
  1. On Bahrain, Ricciardo was running 4th vs Verstappen's 11th at the time Verstappen retired. Ricciardo's car shut down on the same lap so yes, Verstappen overtook Ricciardo, but only because his car died first.
  2. Azerbaijan had the infamous collision between the two. Verstappen was indeed in front, but both have been trading places all race. Hardly an advantage from either.
  3. Austria they were at 1-2 at one point but then Ricciardo had a mechanical issue so yes Max was in the lead here.
  4. Germany Ricciardo did not even run Q2 since he had a 20-place penalty so he started at P19. No wonder Max was ahead when Ricciardo retired.
  5. At Belgium Ricciardo P8 to Verstappen's P7 and got punted off at the start with the whole Hulkenburg brake lock pile-up. So technically you are right, Max was ahead.
  6. Italy saw Ricciard again the recipient of a 30-place penalty for engine elements so he started from P19. That new engine exploded anyway. You are right again, Max was ahead (because at least he qualified).
  7. Verstappen started on 18th here after receiving a 5-place penalty for a gearbox change. He didn't run Q2 as a result. Ricciardo was ahead at P4 vs Verstappen's P5 if I recall correctly when he retired.
  8. Finally on Mexico, they were running 1-2 (Max ahead) so yes Max was ahead here.
So while you are correct that Ricciardo was behind Max in most of these retirements, 3 of those were outside his control (penalties+start collision). For Azerbaijan one could argue Ricciardo was faster than Verstappen and Max was only ahead due to strategy (overcut worked here).

So personally, I think both are very close in terms of performance during their time together. Max probably has the better potential due to his speed at that age but I don't think it is fair to say Ricciardo is not a deserving champion. Last year he beat Hulkenburg and this year he is beating Ocon. Granted Ocon had some time off F1, he still had the testing season to catch up on the new car.
Guys, this is totally off topic, most of this should be in the RBR team thread. I would like to add though that Ricciardo himself thought Verstappen was doing much better than him;

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13932 ... etty-bleak

and azerbaijan Max was quicker in every session bar Q3 where it counted. Ricciardo had free air in the twisty bits in the town centre and running just before him Kimi Raikonnen had spun upon entering the straight and pulled up just in front of Ricciardo giving him a massive tow. Max was up after sector 2 but lost due to that tow. Also, Max overtook Ricciardo in the first lap. He drove away every lap but Ricciardo could come back on the massive straight lap after lap (headwind too). and when Max finally made a gap to Ricciardo he got stuck behind Hamilton I think it was allowing Ricci back on his tail. To me that was a very frustrating weekend.

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Re: 2020 Sakhir Grand Prix - Sakhir, Dec 04 - 06

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Sieper wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 11:56 am
e30ernest wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:19 am
Moore77 wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 8:05 am
As for 2018, did you consider that fact that, in almost all those Ric's retirements, he was behind Max? If Ric didn't have those retirements, the gap would have been less. He wouldn't have overtaken Max in standings.
Similar story in 2017. Ric was better that year in races, but thoroughly outqualified by Max. So Ric got outqualified 2 years in a row and outraced in 2018. That doesn't say, it was a even.
I think on 2018, there were also extenuating circumstances that affected Ricciardo's performance. All those DNFs, coupled with all those qualifying penalties those DNFs caused and the fact that he announced his move to Renault as early as August would have all had an effect on his motivation and team support.

That said, of his DNFs 2- 6 in Max's favor, but it wasn't cut and dry too (because of those penalties):
  1. On Bahrain, Ricciardo was running 4th vs Verstappen's 11th at the time Verstappen retired. Ricciardo's car shut down on the same lap so yes, Verstappen overtook Ricciardo, but only because his car died first.
  2. Azerbaijan had the infamous collision between the two. Verstappen was indeed in front, but both have been trading places all race. Hardly an advantage from either.
  3. Austria they were at 1-2 at one point but then Ricciardo had a mechanical issue so yes Max was in the lead here.
  4. Germany Ricciardo did not even run Q2 since he had a 20-place penalty so he started at P19. No wonder Max was ahead when Ricciardo retired.
  5. At Belgium Ricciardo P8 to Verstappen's P7 and got punted off at the start with the whole Hulkenburg brake lock pile-up. So technically you are right, Max was ahead.
  6. Italy saw Ricciard again the recipient of a 30-place penalty for engine elements so he started from P19. That new engine exploded anyway. You are right again, Max was ahead (because at least he qualified).
  7. Verstappen started on 18th here after receiving a 5-place penalty for a gearbox change. He didn't run Q2 as a result. Ricciardo was ahead at P4 vs Verstappen's P5 if I recall correctly when he retired.
  8. Finally on Mexico, they were running 1-2 (Max ahead) so yes Max was ahead here.
So while you are correct that Ricciardo was behind Max in most of these retirements, 3 of those were outside his control (penalties+start collision). For Azerbaijan one could argue Ricciardo was faster than Verstappen and Max was only ahead due to strategy (overcut worked here).

So personally, I think both are very close in terms of performance during their time together. Max probably has the better potential due to his speed at that age but I don't think it is fair to say Ricciardo is not a deserving champion. Last year he beat Hulkenburg and this year he is beating Ocon. Granted Ocon had some time off F1, he still had the testing season to catch up on the new car.
Guys, this is totally off topic, most of this should be in the RBR team thread. I would like to add though that Ricciardo himself thought Verstappen was doing much better than him;

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13932 ... etty-bleak

and azerbaijan Max was quicker in every session bar Q3 where it counted. Ricciardo had free air in the twisty bits in the town centre and running just before him Kimi Raikonnen had spun upon entering the straight and pulled up just in front of Ricciardo giving him a massive tow. Max was up after sector 2 but lost due to that tow. Also, Max overtook Ricciardo in the first lap. He drove away every lap but Ricciardo could come back on the massive straight lap after lap (headwind too). and when Max finally made a gap to Ricciardo he got stuck behind Hamilton I think it was allowing Ricci back on his tail. To me that was a very frustrating weekend.
Yeah it is off-topic, apologies. :mrgreen:

Back to this race though, Verstappen is poking some fun at Russell:

https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/74444/ve ... amera.html

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El Scorchio
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Re: 2020 Sakhir Grand Prix - Sakhir, Dec 04 - 06

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e30ernest wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 12:01 pm
Sieper wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 11:56 am
e30ernest wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:19 am


I think on 2018, there were also extenuating circumstances that affected Ricciardo's performance. All those DNFs, coupled with all those qualifying penalties those DNFs caused and the fact that he announced his move to Renault as early as August would have all had an effect on his motivation and team support.

That said, of his DNFs 2- 6 in Max's favor, but it wasn't cut and dry too (because of those penalties):
  1. On Bahrain, Ricciardo was running 4th vs Verstappen's 11th at the time Verstappen retired. Ricciardo's car shut down on the same lap so yes, Verstappen overtook Ricciardo, but only because his car died first.
  2. Azerbaijan had the infamous collision between the two. Verstappen was indeed in front, but both have been trading places all race. Hardly an advantage from either.
  3. Austria they were at 1-2 at one point but then Ricciardo had a mechanical issue so yes Max was in the lead here.
  4. Germany Ricciardo did not even run Q2 since he had a 20-place penalty so he started at P19. No wonder Max was ahead when Ricciardo retired.
  5. At Belgium Ricciardo P8 to Verstappen's P7 and got punted off at the start with the whole Hulkenburg brake lock pile-up. So technically you are right, Max was ahead.
  6. Italy saw Ricciard again the recipient of a 30-place penalty for engine elements so he started from P19. That new engine exploded anyway. You are right again, Max was ahead (because at least he qualified).
  7. Verstappen started on 18th here after receiving a 5-place penalty for a gearbox change. He didn't run Q2 as a result. Ricciardo was ahead at P4 vs Verstappen's P5 if I recall correctly when he retired.
  8. Finally on Mexico, they were running 1-2 (Max ahead) so yes Max was ahead here.
So while you are correct that Ricciardo was behind Max in most of these retirements, 3 of those were outside his control (penalties+start collision). For Azerbaijan one could argue Ricciardo was faster than Verstappen and Max was only ahead due to strategy (overcut worked here).

So personally, I think both are very close in terms of performance during their time together. Max probably has the better potential due to his speed at that age but I don't think it is fair to say Ricciardo is not a deserving champion. Last year he beat Hulkenburg and this year he is beating Ocon. Granted Ocon had some time off F1, he still had the testing season to catch up on the new car.
Guys, this is totally off topic, most of this should be in the RBR team thread. I would like to add though that Ricciardo himself thought Verstappen was doing much better than him;

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13932 ... etty-bleak

and azerbaijan Max was quicker in every session bar Q3 where it counted. Ricciardo had free air in the twisty bits in the town centre and running just before him Kimi Raikonnen had spun upon entering the straight and pulled up just in front of Ricciardo giving him a massive tow. Max was up after sector 2 but lost due to that tow. Also, Max overtook Ricciardo in the first lap. He drove away every lap but Ricciardo could come back on the massive straight lap after lap (headwind too). and when Max finally made a gap to Ricciardo he got stuck behind Hamilton I think it was allowing Ricci back on his tail. To me that was a very frustrating weekend.
Yeah it is off-topic, apologies. :mrgreen:

Back to this race though, Verstappen is poking some fun at Russell:

https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/74444/ve ... amera.html
Bit rich coming from the man who kicked the wall!

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Re: 2020 Sakhir Grand Prix - Sakhir, Dec 04 - 06

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That was weird, him kicking the wall, he should have just walked off, saying such bad luck, giving Charles a tap on the shoulder, good try to try and finish fourth this season and then merrily go to his hotel room for a gin and tonic.

Meanwile Russell could then pull up a track commissioners seat and enjoy the bahrein night sun for a nice Alonso tan.

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Big Tea
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Re: 2020 Sakhir Grand Prix - Sakhir, Dec 04 - 06

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Sieper wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 12:41 pm
That was weird, him kicking the wall, he should have just walked off, saying such bad luck, giving Charles a tap on the shoulder, good try to try and finish fourth this season and then merrily go to his hotel room for a gin and tonic.

Meanwile Russell could then pull up a track commissioners seat and enjoy the bahrein night sun for a nice Alonso tan.
Better to sit quietly and compose himself than go straight to the press and say something he regrets.
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Re: 2020 Sakhir Grand Prix - Sakhir, Dec 04 - 06

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Restomaniac wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 7:57 am
foxmulder_ms wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 1:16 am
ringo wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 8:18 pm
I feel bad for bottas, but i wont say from this one race that russel is the better driver. Russel was on a high for this race, and Bottas let Russel get into his head and he fluffed the race. The fear of being compared, and possibly the pressure for him to try and blow russel out of the water is what done him in.
I would like to see both race again for abudahbi, this time with bottas being his usual cool coffee sipping self.
He did poorly this race, poorer than usual. Russel did what he had to do, but at the same time i do think Bottas would have caught him. This race is akin to so many new kids on the block races like hamilton vs alonso, vettel vs riciardo, etc. The incumbent usually lets the new guy with nothing to lose get inside his head and end up performing worse than they should.

100%.

Russel did a very good start and raced really well *but* he couldn't shake Bottas. Bottas was within 2-3 seconds all the time then undercut worked 3-4 labs to increase the delta to 8 seconds. And when he passed Bottas during the race, Bottas was on 20 labs older hard vs new mediums so it was expected. Frankly, I don't understand why people are hyped this much either for or against him.
Russell did exactly what Hamilton does. Get a gap and maintain it.

Why burn out your tyres in free air? Better to put it in cruise and let the guy in your dirty air worry about it.
And BOT did what HAM usually does when HAM is behind BOT, puts a little pressure on and then falls back to preserve the tires until the first stop when he can go longer for fresher tires in the 2nd stint. Sometimes it worked for HAM, most times it didn't. The race was mostly decided on the start and the dive into the first corner. Neither RUS nor BOT did anything exceptional.

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Re: 2020 Sakhir Grand Prix - Sakhir, Dec 04 - 06

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ringo wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 8:31 am
Schuttelberg wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:33 pm
In my lifetime, I will not support a sportsman like I did Schumacher. He was my childhood hero. What I do today in my life, a lot of its ethos is derived from seeing him. How meticulous and detailed he was. But, in my heart I know Lewis has achieved more and through his sheer willingness to accept more competition will probably and should be regarded as the best ever.

But, during the Schumacher days, he was a villain and his team mate's uselessness was almost used against his brilliance. I saw shades of it when Webber was unable to beat Vettel. But the sheer desperation among some fans to make Bottas look like this amazing driver I have never seen. It is beyond pathetic. A guy walks in and basically owns him and people are just clinging on to Abu Dhabi hoping Bottas puts a Hamilton on him. Newsflash!! He should have been doing that at Sakhir as well and the constant excuses for failure frankly sounds unbelievably desperate.

I think personally, Hamilton deserves his dominant cars. He's just earned it. Perhaps, he even deserves a lapdog. I don't think Russell is beating Hamilton over a year but I think what really *pisses off* most fans is the continuous pretence from Mercedes, Toto and Lewis that Valtteri is a "challenger." It's an absolute joke. I know a lot of fans will be on Hamilton's case if Russell beats Bottas at Abu Dhabi and I'm not going to be one of those but by god I swear some fans really push you to question the last few championships.

Just to put it out there- What is George to do if Red Bull offer him a race seat for 2021? Mercedes have already wasted Wehrlein. I think Ocon had done more than enough to be in a Mercedes already and I think it's just unbelievable that Russell doesn't get in the seat in 2021. Sure, he could be there in 2022, but Mercedes are being extremely arrogant and George extremely juvenile if he thinks that this dominance is forever. It might change.
why dont you believe driver can have an off day?
We have seen Vettel have off seasons muchless days, and he is valued highly. I admit that Bottas let Russel get into his head. Does that make Bottas a slower driver? No it doesnt. Does that make Bottas have poor racecraft? It doesn't.
The man just had a really bad day. He has wins where has commanded from the front and held of challengers.
I don't think that ability will disappear overnight.
Bottas i beleive, overcooked his effort to be top dog in a team, and may have been trying to hard to eclipse George and it backfired. He is just not used to being a team leader; or having been in a team longer than a new comer. He was always the newcomer and the underdog. This weekend was the first time he ever had to defend his reputation and it was overcooked and failed miserably.
Or BOT got pole and didn't have the best start, we've seen it by many drivers, many times. Why it's such a big deal? I know exactly why, it is nothing but an attempt to minimize HAM's accomplishments.

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Re: 2020 Sakhir Grand Prix - Sakhir, Dec 04 - 06

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what was there to misspeak. He showed his speed and is now a martyr of his first race in a top car. Leclerc was pittied for halve a season after Bahrein last year and still is allowed to pull of stunts any other driver would be chastised for without an eye lid being bat.

Russell was clearly playing the drama like alonso did parking himself in the spotlights. Good on him! If you really going to take time to collect yourself before speaking you do somewhere where nobody can see you. Like Max tried to do when he sat behind the pitbox coming to terms with losing the turkey pole to improving weather conditions. Ofcourse still a pcture was made by someone of a private moment otherwise we woudl't have known, but not front an centre in the mixed zone where all the camera teams are.

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Re: 2020 Sakhir Grand Prix - Sakhir, Dec 04 - 06

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This is beautiful, love the head out the sunroof :lol: =D>

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Re: 2020 Sakhir Grand Prix - Sakhir, Dec 04 - 06

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NathanOlder wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 4:24 pm
This is beautiful, love the head out the sunroof :lol: =D>

https://www.instagram.com/p/CIfy6MnDju0 ... hare_sheet
Who is the cowboy hat and the big guy with his head poking out?

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Re: 2020 Sakhir Grand Prix - Sakhir, Dec 04 - 06

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Sieper wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 3:28 pm
what was there to misspeak. He showed his speed and is now a martyr of his first race in a top car. Leclerc was pittied for halve a season after Bahrein last year and still is allowed to pull of stunts any other driver would be chastised for without an eye lid being bat.

Russell was clearly playing the drama like alonso did parking himself in the spotlights. Good on him! If you really going to take time to collect yourself before speaking you do somewhere where nobody can see you. Like Max tried to do when he sat behind the pitbox coming to terms with losing the turkey pole to improving weather conditions. Ofcourse still a pcture was made by someone of a private moment otherwise we woudl't have known, but not front an centre in the mixed zone where all the camera teams are.
I always thought Hamilton was awful when he speaks (so much of melodrama which he could without), but Max is beating him to that. Lots of unnecessary statements against Ferrari, against his team mate and now against someone who would most likely have shut the door for him on a Mercedes possibility. Like Hamilton, he is bloody good driver, but this frustration that he is masquerading, covered in cheap jibes, isn't going to make him look appealing to any team. In a few years, he would most likely have insulted the whole of the grid and shutting all doors on himself.

There are drivers around him like Leclerc, Norris, Sainz and now Russell, who are all talented to deliver championships to their teams when they have a good car in their hand, rendering Max unwanted and leaving at the sole hope of a Red Bull making a winner. In such difficult circumstances, having an unnecessary loud mouth is plain simple suicidal.
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Re: 2020 Sakhir Grand Prix - Sakhir, Dec 04 - 06

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nzjrs wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 5:20 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 4:24 pm
This is beautiful, love the head out the sunroof :lol: =D>

https://www.instagram.com/p/CIfy6MnDju0 ... hare_sheet
Who is the cowboy hat and the big guy with his head poking out?
The BBC Top Gear duo of Clarkson with head out the Sunroof and Richard Hammond in the cowboy hat I think
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Re: 2020 Sakhir Grand Prix - Sakhir, Dec 04 - 06

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He’s Alonso 2.0.

He’s still young so he has a full career ahead of him, but he could hold himself back in the long run vs. what he could potentially achieve by playing the political game poorly.

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El Scorchio
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Re: 2020 Sakhir Grand Prix - Sakhir, Dec 04 - 06

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Totally agree. You can say what you like and get away with it if you're head and shoulders above everyone- which may have been the case amongst other young drivers 3 years ago with only flimsy competition, but it's not the case now Leclerc and Russell are on the scene. If you talk badly about or alienate others around you, then you're going to find yourself in a very tricky position and no-one will want you because the upside is no longer worth the baggage.

It'll be very bad news to have two very good and also younger drivers in those Ferrari and Mercedes seats, because neither is going to go anywhere as long as they and the teams are successful, and neither will want to bring in a disruptive force. The only hope then would be Red Bull returning to dominance assuming internal harmony can at least be kept.

A bit more self awareness with an eye on the long game, would be sensible. Russell and Leclerc already seem much better polished.