General Honda F1 Topic

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
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Big Tea
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So is here anything stopping Honda leaving, and passing on the old, no longer Honda, but what ever the company wil be called to Red Bull and beginning or continuing work on one they have in design stages?

As it would not be a current F1 engine and Honda is not in F1 (at that time) they are free to test as much as they like.

Could they then sell or give this engine to the Red Bull company just in time for the introduction of the new engine spec to F1?

Sort of hit the ground running, the opposite of what they did this time?
We are standing on the shoulders of Giants. So watch your feet.

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lio007
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Wouter wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 4:45 pm
"We are not making any major changes to our engine system. It seems that some other suppliers are considering that, but our base system will be similar to the one we used in 2020."
This is a big surprise for me. So the increase of 40HP may be really just a rumour!?

But on the other hand: what is the "base system"? A V6 with a split turbo layout, and an MGU-H and an MGU-K :D #-o

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lio007 wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:47 pm
Wouter wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 4:45 pm
"We are not making any major changes to our engine system. It seems that some other suppliers are considering that, but our base system will be similar to the one we used in 2020."
This is a big surprise for me. So the increase of 40HP may be really just a rumour!?

But on the other hand: what is the "base system"? A V6 with a split turbo layout, and an MGU-H and an MGU-K :D #-o
I believe he is talking about the general PU lay out. Ferrari and/or Renault going to split Turbo like Merc and Honda. The layout is probably the base system spoken here. My opinion in reading this.

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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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lio007 wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:47 pm
Wouter wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 4:45 pm
"We are not making any major changes to our engine system. It seems that some other suppliers are considering that, but our base system will be similar to the one we used in 2020."
This is a big surprise for me. So the increase of 40HP may be really just a rumour!?

But on the other hand: what is the "base system"? A V6 with a split turbo layout, and an MGU-H and an MGU-K :D #-o
The 40HP increase should be considered a rumor as there is no concrete data saying so. It's "word of the paddock" from Jack Plooij and the understanding is that the Honda PU was down 30HP to the Mercedes in 2020.

With regard to the next Honda PU here's what Tanabe said at Abu Dhabi :
2021年のF1パワーユニットの開発について質問された田辺豊治は「我々は過去の自分たちの弱点について多くのことを学びました。エンジン、ICEだけでなく、ERSを含めたすべてのエリアを改善し、来年シーズンはPUとして強力なパッケージとして作りたいと考えています」と最終戦 F1アブダビGPの記者会見で語った。

「内燃エンジンに関してはすべてが新しいわけではありませんが、ほとんど新しいものです。ハイブリッドシステムに関しても、昨年からアップデートされたものもあれば、新しいパーツもあります」

「アップデートと新しいパーツが混在していると言えますが、エンジンは完全に新しいわけではありません。ただし、ほとんどのパーツは新しいです」


"We have, looking back on our past weaknesses, learned much about it. As for the engine, with not just the ICE but also including an improvement with the ERS, we think the PU for next season will make a powerful package.

The ICE won't necessarily be entirely all-new, but it is pretty much new. The hybrid system, with this past year's updates considered, will also have brand new parts.

While I can say there is a mix of updated and brand new parts, it's not like the engine is completely new. However, much of the parts are new".

https://f1-gate.com/honda/f1_60235.html

Obviously the parts that are "new" I surmise are new designs or materials with efficiencies and durability improvements. Regarding performance upgrades we'll likely not know what improvements are being made but there is a belief that Honda is utilizing a "clever" interpretation of the regulations with off-throttle fuel burning to prolong electrical energy generation which is being called "a secret weapon". This system introduced last year apparently had no issues with regard to regulation scrutiny so there likely may be improvements in this area. It's been discussed here before but whether or not this actually provides an advantage remains to be seen. It's mentioned in this other article below.

https://f1-gate.com/honda/f1_60252.html

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Wouter
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ispano6 wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 6:58 am

The 40HP increase should be considered a rumor as there is no concrete data saying so. It's "word of the paddock" from Jack Plooij and the understanding is that the Honda PU was down 30HP to the Mercedes in 2020.

With regard to the next Honda PU here's what Tanabe said at Abu Dhabi :
2021年のF1パワーユニットの開発について質問された田辺豊治は「我々は過去の自分たちの弱点について多くのことを学びました。エンジン、ICEだけでなく、ERSを含めたすべてのエリアを改善し、来年シーズンはPUとして強力なパッケージとして作りたいと考えています」と最終戦 F1アブダビGPの記者会見で語った。

「内燃エンジンに関してはすべてが新しいわけではありませんが、ほとんど新しいものです。ハイブリッドシステムに関しても、昨年からアップデートされたものもあれば、新しいパーツもあります」

「アップデートと新しいパーツが混在していると言えますが、エンジンは完全に新しいわけではありません。ただし、ほとんどのパーツは新しいです」


"We have, looking back on our past weaknesses, learned much about it. As for the engine, with not just the ICE but also including an improvement with the ERS, we think the PU for next season will make a powerful package.

The ICE won't necessarily be entirely all-new, but it is pretty much new. The hybrid system, with this past year's updates considered, will also have brand new parts.

While I can say there is a mix of updated and brand new parts, it's not like the engine is completely new. However, much of the parts are new".

https://f1-gate.com/honda/f1_60235.html

Obviously the parts that are "new" I surmise are new designs or materials with efficiencies and durability improvements. Regarding performance upgrades we'll likely not know what improvements are being made but there is a belief that Honda is utilizing a "clever" interpretation of the regulations with off-throttle fuel burning to prolong electrical energy generation which is being called "a secret weapon". This system introduced last year apparently had no issues with regard to regulation scrutiny so there likely may be improvements in this area. It's been discussed here before but whether or not this actually provides an advantage remains to be seen. It's mentioned in this other article below.

https://f1-gate.com/honda/f1_60252.html
Thanks for this information @Ispano !

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PlatinumZealot
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ispano6 wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 6:58 am
Ispano, check your inbox. Got something for you to check. thanks.
Not driving a Mercedes? Work harder!

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JordanMugen
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Marko:
As for the negotiations, it’s a complex topic, but I would say we are 85%/90% close to the target. Honda has been very helpful. This means that we can continue to use the engine, also with technical help from Honda. But we need a freeze on development.
https://www.grandprix247.com/2020/12/22 ... an-option/

Very interesting! It will be great to see Honda power units continue in usage from 2022 to 2024. =D>

Snorked
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Improve ERS regeneration through thorough energy management research. Honda F1, 2021 will make a big leap with the introduction of new PU

https://www.as-web.jp/f1/659586/2
Honda is said to have conducted thorough energy management research to cover the amount of ERS regeneration that was behind other companies. Until the middle of the season, it was said that the deployment expired in the final for a long time, "I lost straight", but the balance between power generation from MGU-H and E boost, limited energy usage, etc. "To the level of doing that?" In the final round of the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix, he used two long back straights to finely use the deployment and learned the speed to pull out and not pull out.

...

In 2021, which is the last year for Honda, a new power unit with a major redesign will be introduced one year ahead of schedule.

According to the people concerned, the 2020 model RA620H also came as close as possible to Mercedes-AMG in terms of peak power alone, and there was still room for growth in this combustion concept, but with the new power unit it is more. It means that it will make a big leap.

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Snorked wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:39 pm
Improve ERS regeneration through thorough energy management research. Honda F1, 2021 will make a big leap with the introduction of new PU

https://www.as-web.jp/f1/659586/2
Honda is said to have conducted thorough energy management research to cover the amount of ERS regeneration that was behind other companies. Until the middle of the season, it was said that the deployment expired in the final for a long time, "I lost straight", but the balance between power generation from MGU-H and E boost, limited energy usage, etc. "To the level of doing that?" In the final round of the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix, he used two long back straights to finely use the deployment and learned the speed to pull out and not pull out.

...

In 2021, which is the last year for Honda, a new power unit with a major redesign will be introduced one year ahead of schedule.

According to the people concerned, ......
the 2020 model RA620H also came as close as possible to Mercedes-AMG in terms of peak power alone, and there was still room for growth in this combustion concept, but with the new power unit it is more. It means that it will make a big leap.
I have read both pages, but I cannot find where these claims come from. I don't see anyone's name from Honda anywhere.
Are they all assumptions made by the writer, Mineoki Yoneya , are they rumors he has heard?
Yamamoto told other things in the two-part interview last week.

Yamamoto: "We are not making any major changes to our engine system. It seems that some other suppliers are considering that, but our base system will be similar to the one we used in 2020."

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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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Wouter wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:38 pm
Snorked wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:39 pm
Improve ERS regeneration through thorough energy management research. Honda F1, 2021 will make a big leap with the introduction of new PU

https://www.as-web.jp/f1/659586/2
Honda is said to have conducted thorough energy management research to cover the amount of ERS regeneration that was behind other companies. Until the middle of the season, it was said that the deployment expired in the final for a long time, "I lost straight", but the balance between power generation from MGU-H and E boost, limited energy usage, etc. "To the level of doing that?" In the final round of the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix, he used two long back straights to finely use the deployment and learned the speed to pull out and not pull out.

...

In 2021, which is the last year for Honda, a new power unit with a major redesign will be introduced one year ahead of schedule.

According to the people concerned, ......
the 2020 model RA620H also came as close as possible to Mercedes-AMG in terms of peak power alone, and there was still room for growth in this combustion concept, but with the new power unit it is more. It means that it will make a big leap.
I have read both pages, but I cannot find where these claims come from. I don't see anyone's name from Honda anywhere.
Are they all assumptions made by the writer, Mineoki Yoneya , are they rumors he has heard?
Yamamoto told other things in the two-part interview last week.

Yamamoto: "We are not making any major changes to our engine system. It seems that some other suppliers are considering that, but our base system will be similar to the one we used in 2020."
That would make sense with what Tanabe-san said, Honda's overall engine concept remains the same but a lot of parts are brand new particularly with regards to the ERS system. Yamamoto in reference to "other suppliers" and "major changes" sounds like he is referring to Renault changing their entire architecture to be that of the Honda/Mercedes form for 2022.

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Wouter
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GhostF1 wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 2:10 am
Wouter wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:38 pm
Snorked wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:39 pm
Improve ERS regeneration through thorough energy management research. Honda F1, 2021 will make a big leap with the introduction of new PU

https://www.as-web.jp/f1/659586/2

I have read both pages, but I cannot find where these claims come from. I don't see anyone's name from Honda anywhere.
Are they all assumptions made by the writer, Mineoki Yoneya , are they rumors he has heard?
Yamamoto told other things in the two-part interview last week.

Yamamoto: "We are not making any major changes to our engine system. It seems that some other suppliers are considering that, but our base system will be similar to the one we used in 2020."
That would make sense with what Tanabe-san said, Honda's overall engine concept remains the same but a lot of parts are brand new particularly with regards to the ERS system. Yamamoto in reference to "other suppliers" and "major changes" sounds like he is referring to Renault changing their entire architecture to be that of the Honda/Mercedes form for 2022.
Thank you @GhostF1, that makes sence. 👍

I still want to know who said these things in the article, I can't find it. @Snorked maybe?

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lio007
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Nice piece of art: Honda "outdraging" Mercedes @Brazil 2019
Image

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Wouter
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WOW!


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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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Wouter wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 9:44 am
GhostF1 wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 2:10 am
Wouter wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:38 pm


I have read both pages, but I cannot find where these claims come from. I don't see anyone's name from Honda anywhere.
Are they all assumptions made by the writer, Mineoki Yoneya , are they rumors he has heard?
Yamamoto told other things in the two-part interview last week.


That would make sense with what Tanabe-san said, Honda's overall engine concept remains the same but a lot of parts are brand new particularly with regards to the ERS system. Yamamoto in reference to "other suppliers" and "major changes" sounds like he is referring to Renault changing their entire architecture to be that of the Honda/Mercedes form for 2022.
Thank you @GhostF1, that makes sence. 👍

I still want to know who said these things in the article, I can't find it. @Snorked maybe?
Imagine you have an engine, you modify a component in that engine to work better, maybe you redesign a water jacket, or oil passage, or you upgrade certain components. For instance you realize you need new pistons, and as a result you need stronger rods, so you have to modify the crank, and then you realize you need to strengthen the crank girdle, so you use machine learning to improve strength and reduce weight. Then your design creates slight oil pressure loss, so you iterate, and improve rigidity of the girdle so it maintains oil pressure. Now you have the same basic layout, and the same pieces, but modified so far from their originally used design in 2020 that you can essentially call it a brand new engine.

What if you have to use a different firing order on the same engine to tame a certain resonant frequency. Then you have to make some modifications to the engine to accommodate that.

Then also consider that there is an in season engine upgrade, perhaps that is what Honda meant by accelerating the release of the 2022 engine, which would use 10% biofuel?

Imola, much to Gasly's dismay, was a sort of eureka moment for Honda regarding energy management, and how to extract more from the MGU-H, they refined this. And in Abu Dhabi, they put all they had learned since then to good use for the qualifying lap. Using the right amount of energy on other parts of the track and deploying slightly less on the long straights proved crucial.

The new power unit builds on this knowledge, and improvements in thermodynamic efficiency(higher compression ratio) means they can use more fuel towards MGU-H regen.

40hp* once they get the little kinks out of it. It's nothing combustion related, or strength, it's small parts that are being troublesome, and are crucial for reliability. Once sorted the asterisk will be removed.
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lio007
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godlameroso wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:33 pm
Wouter wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 9:44 am
GhostF1 wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 2:10 am


That would make sense with what Tanabe-san said, Honda's overall engine concept remains the same but a lot of parts are brand new particularly with regards to the ERS system. Yamamoto in reference to "other suppliers" and "major changes" sounds like he is referring to Renault changing their entire architecture to be that of the Honda/Mercedes form for 2022.
Thank you @GhostF1, that makes sence. 👍

I still want to know who said these things in the article, I can't find it. @Snorked maybe?
40hp* once they get the little kinks out of it. It's nothing combustion related, or strength, it's small parts that are being troublesome, and are crucial for reliability. Once sorted the asterisk will be removed.
Do you imply they have reliability problems with the new PU?