2021 Mclaren F1 Team

[diffuser]

I just went back and re-read this article:

https://www.racefans.net/2020/11/03/no- ... cl35m-key/

So perhaps it was put forward, it wasn't how I read it at that time, and I still am not sure how granular those designs would have been, or if they were just very high level.

Interestingly it seems our sidepods might not be much different despite a different cooling layout inside.

Time will tell and not knowing what scope we have to advance is killing me! Roll on testing...

That does kinda contradict this statement in their own website though

The other big change heading into next year, which is unique to us, is the new power unit. We can’t just carry over the chassis from 2020. We’ve had to do a lot of redesigning, especially when it comes to various systems on the car, such as cooling and electronics. Not only will the chassis be different, the gearbox will be too and, of course, the engine, so the MCL35M is akin to a new car for us.

https://www.mclaren.com/racing/team/jam ... a-qa-2020/

No sure how that contradicts ... The Sidepods are allowed to change, those and the front wing were not frozen.

[the EDGE]

I just went back and re-read this article:

https://www.racefans.net/2020/11/03/no- ... cl35m-key/

So perhaps it was put forward, it wasn't how I read it at that time, and I still am not sure how granular those designs would have been, or if they were just very high level.

Interestingly it seems our sidepods might not be much different despite a different cooling layout inside.

Time will tell and not knowing what scope we have to advance is killing me! Roll on testing...

That does kinda contradict this statement in their own website though

The other big change heading into next year, which is unique to us, is the new power unit. We can’t just carry over the chassis from 2020. We’ve had to do a lot of redesigning, especially when it comes to various systems on the car, such as cooling and electronics. Not only will the chassis be different, the gearbox will be too and, of course, the engine, so the MCL35M is akin to a new car for us.

https://www.mclaren.com/racing/team/jam ... a-qa-2020/

No sure how that contradicts ... The Sidepods are allowed to change, those and the front wing were not frozen.

Sorry, I wasn’t referring to the comment, I was referring to the 2 articles

The first downplays the changes, the 2nd implies the changes are much greater

Should have made that clearer

[Morteza]

With this collection and the livery of the car in the background I thought McLaren had signed Lewis for 2021

[mwillems]

I just went back and re-read this article:

https://www.racefans.net/2020/11/03/no- ... cl35m-key/

So perhaps it was put forward, it wasn't how I read it at that time, and I still am not sure how granular those designs would have been, or if they were just very high level.

Interestingly it seems our sidepods might not be much different despite a different cooling layout inside.

Time will tell and not knowing what scope we have to advance is killing me! Roll on testing...

That does kinda contradict this statement in their own website though

https://www.mclaren.com/racing/team/jam ... a-qa-2020/

The other big change heading into next year, which is unique to us, is the new power unit. We can’t just carry over the chassis from 2020. We’ve had to do a lot of redesigning, especially when it comes to various systems on the car, such as cooling and electronics. Not only will the chassis be different, the gearbox will be too and, of course, the engine, so the MCL35M is akin to a new car for us.

I saw that too and I think that is what led me to feel like we were going to be able to do a lot to the car, but then I read a part of the former article, where it talks about the fact that the engine will be tightly packaged, but they won't be able to take advantage of the engines tight packaging. Almost like they will have to artificially keep the sidepods at least a similar size to what they were at this year.

I can understand why someone might think it is all done and dusted and why someone might think there is a lot of scope for them to enhance the car. I was in the latter camp, but now I have no idea what to think.

But talking of contradictions, in the article I posted, he states that they had to compromise to get the car design to work for the FIA, and later on he says it's a good car and he feels he didn't have to compromise. Maybe they feel that they did get a good deal out of the FIA and are finding hard to not be honest about it.

<tinfoil>It really wouldn't surprise me if the FIA were happy to see Mclaren push back towards the front (and helped clear the path a little) as it would definitely help the sport</tinfoil>

[SmallSoldier]

Pat Fry:

It sounds simple, but you need to learn how to drive the power unit these days. Even the same powerunit, in a different car, it's completely different in how we set things up.

Interesting... Assume he's talking about cooling...

Not only that, how the Power Unit delivers power / torque will have an effect on how you setup your rear suspension to get the maximum amount of traction... How it harvest and engine braking should also have an effect on settings such as brake bias and how your differentials are setup.


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[SmallSoldier]

Agreed an even if the car is somehow a silver bullet the teams can’t complain as it was heavily monitored by the FIA

I think that if we are heavily modified and find a chunk of time then people will complain, but then I think James Key has been quite open in saying that this will pretty much be a brand new car so I guess that the teams are prepared at least for how different it will be.

Let's see how they react if it is also .5 second faster than the MCL35 even after the new aero regs for this year...

How can they complain about it ? It was monitored heavily by the FIA if they do find time it’ll just be a brawn situation (engine wise) an the other teams will have to deal with it

They can complain about it... Whether it is a meaningful complain, that has some solid arguments or just a distraction is a different story, but the ability and desire from other teams to complain will always be there.

Although, it is way too soon to start speculating on that issue, since we don’t have a clue of how the performance of the car will be.


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[SmallSoldier]

Just to be clear. The teams had to have finalized their plans with the FIA last September. So the FIA have already approved whatever McLaren is doing. There will be no surprises.

The reg changes for 2021 are gonna make making the 2021 car .5 faster than the 2020 car very hard.

Plus the changes to the regs all target the rear of the car and all reduce DF at the back. This is going to make it harder to make use of more power. It delays when you can get on full throttle. For example if last year you could get on full throttle at 130KPH this year it might 150-170KPH, with the same amount of rear wing.

The .5 was just a random number to highlight how a big improvement in speed would make us a target.

I didn't know that all the changes are agreed, so does that mean that the chassis and the cooling and everything associated with it was finalised by September? Seems a bit early.

That's the way I understood the whole token thingy. Also if you go back to that interview with Key, he talks about the back and forth with the FIA over what they could and couldn't do. So that was the discussion over their proposed changes.

There were 3 dates that they had to comply with for different parts of the design, the last being in November, I think. I think the token was the first date , I beleive, and that was end of September (or there abouts).

Remember all the stuff about getting the nose out before then....They already knew what had to be done Before or not done at all.

The dates were intended to tell FIA how they were going to use the Tokens, they didn’t need to have finalized designs for it... The other cut off dates where for parts to be homologated (therefore wouldn’t need Tokens)

So, Mclaren could have still work on the “integration” of parts until as late as they could (considering production times)


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[diffuser]

The .5 was just a random number to highlight how a big improvement in speed would make us a target.

I didn't know that all the changes are agreed, so does that mean that the chassis and the cooling and everything associated with it was finalised by September? Seems a bit early.

That's the way I understood the whole token thingy. Also if you go back to that interview with Key, he talks about the back and forth with the FIA over what they could and couldn't do. So that was the discussion over their proposed changes.

There were 3 dates that they had to comply with for different parts of the design, the last being in November, I think. I think the token was the first date , I beleive, and that was end of September (or there abouts).

Remember all the stuff about getting the nose out before then....They already knew what had to be done Before or not done at all.

The dates were intended to tell FIA how they were going to use the Tokens, they didn’t need to have finalized designs for it... The other cut off dates where for parts to be homologated (therefore wouldn’t need Tokens)

So, Mclaren could have still work on the “integration” of parts until as late as they could (considering production times)


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I could be wrong cause I'm no lawyer and you need one to understand the rules but that's what I understood.

https://the-race.com/formula-1/six-key- ... -answered/

WHEN CAN CHANGES BE MADE, AND HOW MANY?
Some homologated components have been afforded a value of one token, which means they can be updated twice.

Bigger components, such as inboard front and rear suspension, have been assigned a value of two tokens.

That means teams can only deploy one change in specification once the design is homologated.

Motor Racing Formula One Testing Test One Day 1 Barcelona, Spain
To use their tokens, teams have to hit three deadlines, starting with the intent to modify a part with an estimate on which parts the change affects and a brief description of the reasons, then providing a full specification of the changes and affected components, and eventually producing a detailed scheme of the intended changes.

This process must be completed within two months of the end of the 2020 shutdown period for parts homologated by the first round, and within two months of the third round of the season for R8-2020 parts.

But the first deadline is so early that if teams want to use a token to change a homologated part, they need begin the process of informing the FIA several weeks before the homologation is even set.

And it means any changes intended to be made during the off-season, or in 2021, will need to be established well before the 2020 campaign has ended.

[Mclarensenna]

"Bolting a faster engine doesn't automatically propel you to the front of the grid. The chassis is very important." <--- I never said the chassis is not important, nor did i say a faster engine will propel you to the front of the grid. I said a faster engine could turn it into a rocket, and could propel them to compete closer to the front, as we really have no idea how much faster the 2021 Merc engine is compared to the 2020 Renault engine. I stated it could be 2 tenths. 5 tenths or a second. We will have to wait and see.
You seem to have misquoted everything i said and not read what i wrote properly.

"RedBull won races with Renault engines. And back in 2018 they were definitely in contention with Ferrari and Mercedes for quite some races." <-------- Ferrari was "vastly" superior to Redbull throughout the 2018 season. Ric we know from 2014 how vastly superior to Vettel is in the same car, yet Ric and Max both ended up behind Vettel and Kimi in the Ferrari so that statement is not true.

"Renault made a decent jump in performance from 2018 to 2019: <----- Renault in 2018 finished 4th. In 2019 they had Ric and Hulk superior drivers and Renault finished 5th. Hulk gad 37 points and finished 14th in 2019 vs 69 points and 7th in 2018. So no Renault did not make a decent jump at all! so that statement definately not true.

I would like to support Mclaren Senna's theories and add that it is not farfetched that maybe Mercedes and Red Bull might be hurt badly by the Downforce Rule Reduction to areas they were very strong against Mclaren. 10% is a lot to lose as losing that much downforce might destabilize their whole car. That could also happen with our car also but as I said there are a lot of possibilities. There are a lot of examples in F1 history where rules changed everything. 2004 and 2005 comes to mind where Mclaren being nearly a second slower by the F2004 but next year covered that gap and left them behind by a second.

To further add most people in 2020 believe that Ferrari developed a very poor chassis hence the loss of so much race pace performance. But look back Ferrari also had a very poor race pace chassis from 2010-2014. Then 2015 with the faster engine tricks they were doing everybody claimed yep the Ferrari chassis is excellent. Then 2020 they say Ferrari created a poor chassis. But it seems to me the major differentiator is the engine not the chassis in all these years.

In 2019 everybody said the Ferrari was designed around Vettel and the chassis was very good and that the 2020 chassis was a complete dud.
Well look what happened at the Abhu dhabi grand prix in 2019 after Ferrari were already given technical directives to slow their engine down. Vettel finished a MASSIVE 1 min and 4 seconds off the leader in 5th nearly lapped. The previous year in 2018 Vettel was 2.5 seconds off the leader in Abhu Dhabi fighting for the win.
Complete night and day!
Vettel was on average 1 second a lap plus off the race pace of the Mercs all of a sudden once the technical directive was issued late 2019. And the rumour was Ferrari only part turned down the engine tricks. If they turned all their engine tricks down in Abhi DHabi 2019 like they were forced to in 2020 they would have been even slower easily lapped.

So yes the Ferrari in 2019 went from race winning potential with Vettel fighting for wins in Canada 2019 even to a car being almost lapped by the final race? Did the chassis turn into a lemon overnight during the 2019 Abhu Dhabi grand prix?
No, losing all that engine power made the chassis look poor instantly in Abhu Dhabi 2019. The same as it did all of 2020

Hence why i speculate IMHO that "if" the 2021 merc engine is vastly superior to the 2020 renault engine then Mclaren could make a hug step just like Ferrari did in 2015-2019, and magically lost all their performance end of 2019 when they lost their engine power and 2020.

[billamend]

I can understand why someone might think it is all done and dusted and why someone might think there is a lot of scope for them to enhance the car. I was in the latter camp, but now I have no idea what to think.

But talking of contradictions, in the article I posted, he states that they had to compromise to get the car design to work for the FIA, and later on he says it's a good car and he feels he didn't have to compromise. Maybe they feel that they did get a good deal out of the FIA and are finding hard to not be honest about it.

Yeah, this is also confusing my expectations. I do not know what to think of it.

[SmallSoldier]

That's the way I understood the whole token thingy. Also if you go back to that interview with Key, he talks about the back and forth with the FIA over what they could and couldn't do. So that was the discussion over their proposed changes.

There were 3 dates that they had to comply with for different parts of the design, the last being in November, I think. I think the token was the first date , I beleive, and that was end of September (or there abouts).

Remember all the stuff about getting the nose out before then....They already knew what had to be done Before or not done at all.

The dates were intended to tell FIA how they were going to use the Tokens, they didn’t need to have finalized designs for it... The other cut off dates where for parts to be homologated (therefore wouldn’t need Tokens)

So, Mclaren could have still work on the “integration” of parts until as late as they could (considering production times)


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I could be wrong cause I'm no lawyer and you need one to understand the rules but that's what I understood.

https://the-race.com/formula-1/six-key- ... -answered/

WHEN CAN CHANGES BE MADE, AND HOW MANY?
Some homologated components have been afforded a value of one token, which means they can be updated twice.

Bigger components, such as inboard front and rear suspension, have been assigned a value of two tokens.

That means teams can only deploy one change in specification once the design is homologated.

Motor Racing Formula One Testing Test One Day 1 Barcelona, Spain
To use their tokens, teams have to hit three deadlines, starting with the intent to modify a part with an estimate on which parts the change affects and a brief description of the reasons, then providing a full specification of the changes and affected components, and eventually producing a detailed scheme of the intended changes.

This process must be completed within two months of the end of the 2020 shutdown period for parts homologated by the first round, and within two months of the third round of the season for R8-2020 parts.

But the first deadline is so early that if teams want to use a token to change a homologated part, they need begin the process of informing the FIA several weeks before the homologation is even set.

And it means any changes intended to be made during the off-season, or in 2021, will need to be established well before the 2020 campaign has ended.

I’m also a bit confused, the dates seem to be very early in the season, especially for someone as Mclaren that probably needed a considerable amount of time to integrate the new PU and the dates in which they were still talking about working on the process.


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[diffuser]

I remember that all this played out during the shutdown, before the season started.

The FIA, to save costs, decided to freeze the chassis, McLaren balking at it and that followed with the FIA announcing the token system.

[SmallSoldier]

I would like to support Mclaren Senna's theories and add that it is not farfetched that maybe Mercedes and Red Bull might be hurt badly by the Downforce Rule Reduction to areas they were very strong against Mclaren. 10% is a lot to lose as losing that much downforce might destabilize their whole car. That could also happen with our car also but as I said there are a lot of possibilities. There are a lot of examples in F1 history where rules changed everything. 2004 and 2005 comes to mind where Mclaren being nearly a second slower by the F2004 but next year covered that gap and left them behind by a second.

To further add most people in 2020 believe that Ferrari developed a very poor chassis hence the loss of so much race pace performance. But look back Ferrari also had a very poor race pace chassis from 2010-2014. Then 2015 with the faster engine tricks they were doing everybody claimed yep the Ferrari chassis is excellent. Then 2020 they say Ferrari created a poor chassis. But it seems to me the major differentiator is the engine not the chassis in all these years.

In 2019 everybody said the Ferrari was designed around Vettel and the chassis was very good and that the 2020 chassis was a complete dud.
Well look what happened at the Abhu dhabi grand prix in 2019 after Ferrari were already given technical directives to slow their engine down. Vettel finished a MASSIVE 1 min and 4 seconds off the leader in 5th nearly lapped. The previous year in 2018 Vettel was 2.5 seconds off the leader in Abhu Dhabi fighting for the win.
Complete night and day!
Vettel was on average 1 second a lap plus off the race pace of the Mercs all of a sudden once the technical directive was issued late 2019. And the rumour was Ferrari only part turned down the engine tricks. If they turned all their engine tricks down in Abhi DHabi 2019 like they were forced to in 2020 they would have been even slower easily lapped.

So yes the Ferrari in 2019 went from race winning potential with Vettel fighting for wins in Canada 2019 even to a car being almost lapped by the final race? Did the chassis turn into a lemon overnight during the 2019 Abhu Dhabi grand prix?
No, losing all that engine power made the chassis look poor instantly in Abhu Dhabi 2019. The same as it did all of 2020

Hence why i speculate IMHO that "if" the 2021 merc engine is vastly superior to the 2020 renault engine then Mclaren could make a hug step just like Ferrari did in 2015-2019, and magically lost all their performance end of 2019 when they lost their engine power and 2020.

Context is a beautiful thing!

Ferrari wasn’t actually a “dud” in Abu Dhabi in 2019... You seem to be forgetting a couple of factors that played into that result... Not only did Vettel pitted twice, he also had a very long pitstop during his first change of tires... Both Ferrari’s pitted in lap 13 while the rest did in the mid 20’s laps... Before that first pitstop they were running 2nd and 4th if I’m not wrong ahead of both Red Bulls

Just looking at the time delta at the end of the race doesn’t allow a good assessment.


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[Mclarensenna]

To further add most people in 2020 believe that Ferrari developed a very poor chassis hence the loss of so much race pace performance. But look back Ferrari also had a very poor race pace chassis from 2010-2014. Then 2015 with the faster engine tricks they were doing everybody claimed yep the Ferrari chassis is excellent. Then 2020 they say Ferrari created a poor chassis. But it seems to me the major differentiator is the engine not the chassis in all these years.

In 2019 everybody said the Ferrari was designed around Vettel and the chassis was very good and that the 2020 chassis was a complete dud.
Well look what happened at the Abhu dhabi grand prix in 2019 after Ferrari were already given technical directives to slow their engine down. Vettel finished a MASSIVE 1 min and 4 seconds off the leader in 5th nearly lapped. The previous year in 2018 Vettel was 2.5 seconds off the leader in Abhu Dhabi fighting for the win.
Complete night and day!
Vettel was on average 1 second a lap plus off the race pace of the Mercs all of a sudden once the technical directive was issued late 2019. And the rumour was Ferrari only part turned down the engine tricks. If they turned all their engine tricks down in Abhi DHabi 2019 like they were forced to in 2020 they would have been even slower easily lapped.

So yes the Ferrari in 2019 went from race winning potential with Vettel fighting for wins in Canada 2019 even to a car being almost lapped by the final race? Did the chassis turn into a lemon overnight during the 2019 Abhu Dhabi grand prix?
No, losing all that engine power made the chassis look poor instantly in Abhu Dhabi 2019. The same as it did all of 2020

Hence why i speculate IMHO that "if" the 2021 merc engine is vastly superior to the 2020 renault engine then Mclaren could make a hug step just like Ferrari did in 2015-2019, and magically lost all their performance end of 2019 when they lost their engine power and 2020.

Context is a beautiful thing!

Ferrari wasn’t actually a “dud” in Abu Dhabi in 2019... You seem to be forgetting a couple of factors that played into that result... Not only did Vettel pitted twice, he also had a very long pitstop during his first change of tires... Both Ferrari’s pitted in lap 13 while the rest did in the mid 20’s laps... Before that first pitstop they were running 2nd and 4th if I’m not wrong ahead of both Red Bulls

Just looking at the time delta at the end of the race doesn’t allow a good assessment.


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So are you saying i made a bad assessment? I could have posted more data but i decided to summarise but sure since you seek further clarification i am happy to help.

2019 Abhu Dhabi Leclerc who got 4 pole positions in 2019 a record not matched since the schumacher Ferrari era and beat Vettel in 2019 so the kid was very fast in 2019 was 43 seconds off Hamilton in Abhu Dhabi. He also outqualied Vettel that race and with superior pace still ended up 43 seconds behind. Compare to Vettel in 2018 Abhu Dhabi ended up 2 seconds behind Hamilton right on his tail. That is a huge difference and it happened due to the engine directive.
http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... 20Hamilton

Hamilton was pacing himself up front not pushing at all so he was nowhere near the maximum. And then he put the hammer down to set the fastest lap and was about 1 second a lap quicker. Also Vettel was on much fresher tyres due to the extra stops which you mentioned. Ham pitted on lap 26, Vettel on 38. So yes Vettel had 12 lap fresher tyres which is MASSIVE. So the race pace delta was much bigger. 1.5 seconds or possibly 2 seconds off the Mercs.

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... 20Hamilton
Compare to 2018 Abhu Dhabi and Vettel pitt 8 laps later sure but came out 15 seconds behind Hamilton on lap 16. Then put the hammer down and caught Ham by the end. Vettel's fastest lap was about half a second quicker. But some of this was due to the fresher tyres. But still i would put Vettels car a few tenths quicker in race pace or even dead even in 2018 Abhhu Dhabi.
Night and day difference and all that changed was the engine directive in Abhu Dhabi 2019.
Its clear as day the Engine directive massively compromised the 2019 Ferrari chassis.
if you need more data i am happy to help also

[SmallSoldier]

Context is a beautiful thing!

Ferrari wasn’t actually a “dud” in Abu Dhabi in 2019... You seem to be forgetting a couple of factors that played into that result... Not only did Vettel pitted twice, he also had a very long pitstop during his first change of tires... Both Ferrari’s pitted in lap 13 while the rest did in the mid 20’s laps... Before that first pitstop they were running 2nd and 4th if I’m not wrong ahead of both Red Bulls

Just looking at the time delta at the end of the race doesn’t allow a good assessment.


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So are you saying i made a bad assessment? I could have posted more data but i decided to summarise but sure since you seek further clarification i am happy to help.

2019 Abhu Dhabi Leclerc who got 4 pole positions in 2019 a record not matched since the schumacher Ferrari era and beat Vettel in 2019 so the kid was very fast in 2019 was 43 seconds off Hamilton in Abhu Dhabi. He also outqualied Vettel that race and with superior pace still ended up 43 seconds behind. Compare to Vettel in 2018 Abhu Dhabi ended up 2 seconds behind Hamilton right on his tail. That is a huge difference and it happened due to the engine directive.
http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... 20Hamilton

Hamilton was pacing himself up front not pushing at all so he was nowhere near the maximum. And then he put the hammer down to set the fastest lap and was about 1 second a lap quicker. Also Vettel was on much fresher tyres due to the extra stops which you mentioned. Ham pitted on lap 26, Vettel on 38. So yes Vettel had 12 lap fresher tyres which is MASSIVE. So the race pace delta was much bigger. 1.5 seconds or possibly 2 seconds off the Mercs.
Night and day difference and all that changed was the engine directive in Abhu Dhabi 2019.
Its clear as day the Engine directive massively compromised the 2019 Ferrari chassis.
if you need more data i am happy to help also

Thanks for the additional info! Your initial assessment was only based on Vettel been 1 min + behind Hamilton a the finish line and that just been a product of supposedly Ferrari losing engine performance due to the Technical Directives... The additional Pistop (26 seconds) is what drove most of the delta in lap times, that’s why I mentioned that we had to put things in context.

Furthermore, I disagree that Abu Dhabi is proof that they lost performance due to the engine simply by how they finished in the standings, the early Pitstops of both Ferrari’s indicate a large degree of degradation on a track that may simply not have suited Ferrari’s 2019 car, which Ferrari struggled with through the season also (for example, Vettel ended 62 seconds from Mercedes in France in the same year, Leclerc was 30 seconds away in Silverstone (which if we consider the time loss due to the additional PitStop would be a similar delta at the end of the race for Leclerc) in Hungary of the same year the best placed Ferrari finished 61 seconds from Mercedes) and just in the US GP (1 race before Abu Dhabi and still running their “suspected engine”) Leclerc was the best placed Ferrari at 52 seconds from Mercedes.

The 2019 season was one of very drastic performance variances for Ferrari... One could argue that Hungary wasn’t a race where the engine plays a dominant role and that’s why there were so far behind, but they dominated in Singapore which has similar characteristics... Ferrari struggled when they couldn’t get their tires in the optimum window and Abu Dhabi was just another track that year where they struggled with that, not necessary related to any engine directives in my opinion and their performance and time delta wasn’t at all too far from other “bad races” for them in 2019.

Furthermore, making that assessment using 2018 results to validate the hypothesis of 2019 also has complications since a big regulation change between both years and therefore car performance was expected to change from year to year.


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