NathanOlder wrote: ↑
Wed Feb 10, 2021 1:49 pm
aMessageToCharlie wrote: ↑
Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:21 pm
NathanOlder wrote: ↑
Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:21 am
Were talking about dominant cars , not just a WCC winner.
Lets look at some stats to back up my side of this debate
The gap between 2nd and 1st in the WCC
2014 Merc scored 73% more than 2nd place
2015 Merc scored 64% more than 2nd place
2016 Merc scored 63% more than 2nd place
2017 Merc scored 27% more than 2nd place
2018 Merc scored 14% more than 2nd place
2019 Merc scored 46% more than 2nd place
2020 Merc scored 79% more than 2nd place
Now please explain how Bottas car was just as dominant as Rosbergs ?! Thats a huge difference. So I think you are wrong on your claim.
The numbers you chose (how much more points did Mercedes bag compared to the second best team) are highly dependent on the two driver's performance. The flaw is in your assumption that Bottas was performing on Rosberg's level, which hasnt been the case.
So let's look a bit deeper and maybe it even helps in understanding the criticism re. Bottas a little better.
Year: Points total, percentage of max. points available (number of races x 25pts)
2014: 317pts, 67%
2015: 322pts, 68%
2016: 385pts, 73%
2017: 305pts, 61%
2018: 247pts, 47%
2019: 326pts, 62%
2020: 223pts, 52%
So if the Mercedes from 2017 onwards was so much worse compared to the competition, we should also see a big drop in Hamilton's percentages, right?
2014: 384pts, 80%
2015: 381pts, 80%
2016: 380pts, 72%
2017: 363pts, 73%
2018: 408pts, 77%
2019: 413pts, 79%
2020: 347pts, 81%
Hamilton's numbers show, that he brought in exactly the same percentage of max. available points in the "Rosberg era" 2014 to 2016, as compared to the "Bottas era" 2017 to 2020.
So yes, Mercedes did score less points from 2017-2020. But the car was more than capeable, (in fact exactly the same as 2014-2016) as Hamilton's results show. It's just that their number two driver didnt perform, which is exactly why he's being criticised and why people point out that he is no yard stick to measure a driver's achievements against.
2 things to crush your hopes in dismissing Bottas
1. Hamilton has certainly improved as a driver since Rosberg has left, therfore maximising his points in recent years.
2. Even if Hamilton had remained the same level (which he hasnt as he has clearly improved although you probably wont agree with that either) Then other drivers have been much closer to him in the WDC in the Bottas era as opposed to the Rosberg era.
Only twice has the gap between the top Merc driver and the other team drivers been under 100 points. 2017 it was as low as 46pts and 2018 it was 88 pts. So your telling me Hamilton had a car as dominant as 2014-2016 and only beat Vettel by 46pts! thats hilarious.
Another thing to consider is, 2019 and 2020, The gap between Hamilton and the next best driver from another team was very similar to the 2014-16 years, So those cars could be said as equally dominant (as I said at the very start) In that time, 2014-16 the 2nd place team were 67% behind in points with Lewis and Nico. The last 2 years the gap has been 63% with Lewis and Bottas.
The average gap between the top Merc driver and top other driver only saw a tiny 8pt difference between the 2 periods (14-16 & 19-20) So the car experienced and equal dominant spell, and the gap between the top 2 teams were very similar too average of 67% and 62%. This means in the last 2 years, Bottas has performed as well as Rosberg did
you cant have it both ways because of your bitter feelings towards a Mercedes driver or 2.
Let's try and not turn this into an emotional "my driver is better than yours" discussion again. I don't have any "bitter feelings" towards anyone, so I'd appreciate you staying rational.
I will not respond to your first point as there is no way for either of us to objectively measure if or by how much Hamilton improved his skills/mindset or whatever.
So the 2017 and 2018 Ferraris were closer in performance to the Merc than in the years before and after. Yes, obviously. We were however comparing periods (2014-2016 vs. 2017-2020) because that is the data we have available for the Ros/Bot comparison. You can of course pick specific years or even races for a selective view but that doesnt change the facts.
The 2017 and 2018 Mercedes was still more than capeable to get points and wins as shown not only by the wdc and wcc trophies, but also by the number one driver, who bought in the exact same percentage of available points in 2017 as in 2016 (73%), won 9 races vs. Bottas 3 and became wdc.
Same in 2018. 11 wins for Hamilton, wdc and bagged 77% of the available points which is on par with 2019 (79%).
0 wins, bagged only 47% of available points and came in 5th!!! in the wdc.
Next up: 2019 & 2020
Firstly I'm glad we're on the same page regarding the dominance of these Mercedes cars.
Indeed the numbers looks quite similar on first glance, but again the devil is in the detail.
2019 was Bottas' best year. He finished "only" 87 points behind his team mate and won 4 GPs. Honestly, if he was performing on that level no one would/could complain really for a number two driver. But he isnt.
And that is exactly the same issue Red Bull has had in 2019 and 2020 and why they axed Albon.
Red Bull came in 2nd in the wcc in 2020 with 319 points compared to Mercedes' 573. And it would have been much closer if they didnt have their own "Bottas" in the no2 car.
Max came in just 9 points short of the dominant 2020 Mercedes (as we agreed on) in the hands of Bottas. Albon came in 7th!! 109 points adrift of his team mate which obviously shifts the numbers.
2019 is a similar story with Verstappen coming in 3rd in the wdc with 278 points (only 48 points behind Bottas in the dominant Merc) vs Albon in 8th!! with only 92 points.
That is why Red Bull replaced Albon and that is why people criticise Bottas. And calling them bitter or haters isnt helping your argument.