2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[Marti_EF3]

Also, they changed their mind and started to give track limit warnings after Max used the same way Ham was using to gain time. That only gives the idea that only some guys are free to use it, but then if someone starts using it too, then it's not ok

[Revs84]

Also, they changed their mind and started to give track limit warnings after Max used the same way Ham was using to gain time. That only gives the idea that only some guys are free to use it, but then if someone starts using it too, then it's not ok

Exactly. Even Wolff admitted that the lack of consistency by the stewards in that corner ended up giving them the race.

Given that Max didn't exploit track limits before his 1st pit stop, it could have been enough to keep Lewis from performing a successful undercut.

Yet some people, selectively, seem to be ignoring this.

[Just_a_fan]

Apologies if this had already been posted. From the Race Director’s Notes this weekend:

21) Track Limits

21.1 Practice Sessions
a) A lap time achieved during any practice session by leaving the track and cutting behind the red and white kerb on the exit of Turn 4, will result in that lap time being invalidated by the stewards.

21.2 Race
a) The track limits at the exit of Turn 4 will not be monitored with regard to setting a lap time, as the defining limits are the artificial grass and the gravel trap in that location.

b) In all cases during the race, Drivers are reminded of the provisions of Article 27.3 of the Sporting Regulations.

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... on_2_0.pdf

Relevant part of 27.3 that applies here:

Should a car leave the track the driver may re-join, however, this may only be done when it is
safe to do so and without gaining any lasting advantage. At the absolute discretion of the race
director a driver may be given the opportunity to give back the whole of any advantage he
gained by leaving the track.

As the race director told Red Bull to give the place back, they considered it a "lasting advantage".

As they had specifically allowed cars to go beyond the white line at T4 during the race, Hamilton (and others) were doing nothing wrong in doing so. But overtaking off track is always a no-no.

So what you are saying is that drivers can exceed track limits in each corner but not to overtake? That doesn't sound quite right does it?

The stewards had started enforcing track limits in turn 4 as the weekend progressed, seeing that several drivers were abusing it. Some drivers such as Ricciardo and Perez even got quali runs deleted because of that.

The problem is that the stewards have not been consistent. The Mercedes drivers should have been shown the black and white flag immediately. Yet they let them gain advantage until Red Bull chose to start exploiting the corner as well - given that they were losing time by following the rules.

So stating that you can exploit track limits to gain time but to not overtake is just not good enough. I want to see consistency, not selective ruling.

The issue isn't about track limits during normal driving. That is a separate issue. Drivers have NEVER been able to overtake by going off the track. Max was penalised for doing so against Kimi a few years ago, for example, when he cut a corner to make the overtake. If you go off track whilst overtaking then you have to give back the place or face a penalty. That has always been the case.

The track limits at T4 was set down on paper by the race director. Track limits would apply there during qualifying but they would not be applied during the race. ALL of the drivers knew that as they were all at the briefing. Hamilton paid attention to the driver briefing and made use of the T4 overrun area. The race director changed his mind on that midway through the race and told Hamilton to stop doing what he had been doing up till then.

These are two entirely separate issues - one made up on the fly during the weekend, and one that is long standing and is in the FIA's regulations.

The lack of consistency by the race director was in changing his mind to track limits at T4 during the race. Once he'd told the drivers it was ok, he should have stuck with that. But even if he had, Max's move would still have been illegal because you can't overtake off track.

[Just_a_fan]

Also, they changed their mind and started to give track limit warnings after Max used the same way Ham was using to gain time. That only gives the idea that only some guys are free to use it, but then if someone starts using it too, then it's not ok

Exactly. Even Wolff admitted that the lack of consistency by the stewards in that corner ended up giving them the race.

Given that Max didn't exploit track limits before his 1st pit stop, it could have been enough to keep Lewis from performing a successful undercut.

Yet some people, selectively, seem to be ignoring this.

Max could have used that area - he was at the driver briefing and heard the same information that Hamilton did. Hamilton paid attention and used the area. Max did not. That is not Hamilton's fault, that's Max's fault.

But everyone agrees that the inconsistency is rubbish and unacceptable.

But even if they had been consistent on the track limits at T4, Max's overtake would still have been illegal because you can't overtake off track. That's not new. That's always been the case and is in the sporting regulations.

[Scorpaguy]

Toto and Company know how to gain an advantage by being the first to break the rule...reaped the advantage thereof...then use the reverse to save the win. Classic Merc...and RB keep falling for it. At least RB may have two drivers now.

[zibby43]

Toto and Company know how to gain an advantage by being the first to break the rule...reaped the advantage thereof...then use the reverse to save the win. Classic Merc...and RB keep falling for it. At least RB may have two drivers now.

It was the same rules for everyone. Mercedes and every other team were free to follow what was put forth in the Race Director's notes. They clearly stated that track limits at T4 would not be monitored during the race, *but* overtaking by leaving the track was still not allowed.

What muddled everything was Race Control's decision to start randomly monitoring T4 during the race, which all teams began complying with. Still a separate issue from overtaking with all 4 wheels off the track.

[Scorpaguy]

They clearly stated that track limits at T4 would not be monitored during the race, *but* overtaking by leaving the track was still not allowed.
https://twitter.com/NorthHertsSam/statu ... 26628?s=20

My point exactly...Merc/Ham used it to their advantage until told they could no longer do so. Max et al had to be told to take advantage thereof...after watching Merc do it for the first 2/3's of the race. When enforced, T4 became a much less opportune overtaking opportunity. Giving the spot back was never in question.

[zibby43]

They clearly stated that track limits at T4 would not be monitored during the race, *but* overtaking by leaving the track was still not allowed.
https://twitter.com/NorthHertsSam/statu ... 26628?s=20

My point exactly...Merc/Ham used it to their advantage until told they could no longer do so. Max et al had to be told to take advantage thereof...after watching Merc do it for the first 2/3's of the race. When enforced, T4 became a much less opportune overtaking opportunity. Giving the spot back was never in question.

As I said before, going into the race, every single team in the paddock could've approached T4 the same way.

Every team had notice.

[ivanlesk]

You keep discusing something you can't defend. Max was told to do the same because Ham was doing it, and no warnings. But then when Max started to do it, there we go with the warnings. Do you see where the inconsistence is? Max got punished for it, but Lewis using it during all race escaped free of it. What are you trying to defend? It's clear that FIA changed their mind during the race, and that is not fair. Because with the amount of times Lewis went off track before Max was told to do, he should have been punished too.

Max was behind white line in T4 with all wheels in first lap, and first one after SC at least. This doesn count?

[PlatinumZealot]

Also, they changed their mind and started to give track limit warnings after Max used the same way Ham was using to gain time. That only gives the idea that only some guys are free to use it, but then if someone starts using it too, then it's not ok

A new argument could also be made:
Hamilton was going off track without intent.
RedBull told Max to do it with intent.

This is where the stewards would start to clamo down.

Anyway, it is a moot point.

The grid were instructed that turn 4 would not be monitored heavily for the race.

And overtaking off track is a cut and dry penalty if the place is not given back.

I sure thought Max would have waited till they reached on the straight to minimize the time lost as well as the tyre cooling effect. It seems he was just a bit anxious that's all. Its his first title fight he will learn very quickly what to do in this situations. He still can win the championship.

[Singabule]

Also, they changed their mind and started to give track limit warnings after Max used the same way Ham was using to gain time. That only gives the idea that only some guys are free to use it, but then if someone starts using it too, then it's not ok

A new argument could also be made:
Hamilton was going off track without intent.
RedBull told Max to do it with intent.

This is where the stewards would start to clamo down.

Anyway, it is a moot point.

The grid were instructed that turn 4 would not be monitored heavily for the race.

And overtaking off track is a cut and dry penalty if the place is not given back.

I sure thought Max would have waited till they reached on the straight to minimize the time lost as well as the tyre cooling effect. It seems he was just a bit anxious that's all. Its his first title fight he will learn very quickly what to do in this situations. He still can win the championship.

Ya, Merc still the team to beat nontheless, and RB is very clear state it on the test. However it is good at least Max could always challenge Hamilton every race if there is no mistake and technical glitch in RB16B car, and hopefully Sergio also could join in the mix to anticipate undercut from Merc. But we know that better to have fast but least reliable car, however you need to finish the race to win the championship. Let see how it goes. Very interesting indeed

[cheeRS]

Toto and Company know how to gain an advantage by being the first to break the rule...reaped the advantage thereof...then use the reverse to save the win. Classic Merc...and RB keep falling for it. At least RB may have two drivers now.

There was no rule to break. That question was made clear on Friday. You could go wide, but you can’t overtake there by going wide. On Friday. RB told Max to do the same. Then, Bono told ham to stop doing it or he’d be penalized. And this was before, when max was still doing it. So Ham did it first because it was 100% legal, then max started. Then the FIA said Ham needs to stop. So he did.

The only “rule” was to not overtake that way, which Max did. So his team, not the FIA, told him to give the place back. End of story.

[Scorpaguy]

...from the FIA F1 Sporting Regulations:

"27.3 Drivers must make every reasonable effort to use the track at all times and may not leave the
track without a justifiable reason.
Drivers will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with it and,
for the avoidance of doubt, any white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of
the track but the kerbs are not."

Sounds like Ham was contrary to the rule for a large part of the race (by his own admission)...once others began doing so, it was decided to enforce the the rule. Telling the drivers otherwise on Fridays was just more FIA inanity. It also proves that Toto and Ham are a bit more cerebral than the rest.

[Marti_EF3]

Anyway, at least we have a title fight this season seems. It will be great races. Hopefully the issues were only this race and they can solve it for the next race

[dans79]

...from the FIA F1 Sporting Regulations:

"27.3 Drivers must make every reasonable effort to use the track at all times and may not leave the
track without a justifiable reason.
Drivers will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with it and,
for the avoidance of doubt, any white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of
the track but the kerbs are not."

Sounds like Ham was contrary to the rule for a large part of the race (by his own admission)...once others began doing so, it was decided to enforce the the rule. Telling the drivers otherwise on Fridays was just more FIA inanity. It also proves that Toto and Ham are a bit more cerebral than the rest.

This is the part the drivers use to get out from under the rule. The tail wind was throwing me off, my floor damage made the car unpredictable, the glare from the flood lights distracted me, etc etc.

Drivers must make every reasonable effort to use the track at all times and may not leave the
track without a justifiable reason.

If anything, what triggered the stewards to start enforcing track limits at turn 4 was the RB pitwall radioing Max and telling him to intentionally do it. You would think they would have a code for that or something.