2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

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fritticaldi
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Re: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

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Let:s not forget that the race was amputated one lap because of Perez problems on the formation lap. An extra lap that could have had significant repercussions on the final result.

e30ernest
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Re: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

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fritticaldi wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:09 am
Let:s not forget that the race was amputated one lap because of Perez problems on the formation lap. An extra lap that could have had significant repercussions on the final result.
Maybe, or maybe not. It did seem to me Max was starting to lose pace too due to degradation.

It's difficult to deal with what-ifs though, because as stated above, Max would also have to contend with Bottas had he not have had that horrid pit stop.

carisi2k
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Re: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

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The problem with this theory is that Lewis went outside the track limits 29 times in the race at turn 4. It allowed him to gain a significant advantage because it allowed him to keep in contact with Max early in the race. The rule I thought was that they would not penalise unless you gained an everlasting advantage. Lewis certainly did gain an everlasting advantage because what if Max had an extra 2-5 second gap around the pit stops. This is enough that he could have pitted the following lap and retained the lead.

Ringleheim
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Re: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:59 pm
AMG.Tzan wrote:
Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:20 pm
On the Vettel front...

I just can't understand how this man has ended up in this miserable situation since 2019! His crash today was so stupid...same as with Verstappen at Silverstone in 2019!

I was hoping that Aston Martin will help him get back up to his old self...but with this kind of incidents I get the feeling Seb is past his best a long time now! Being beaten by Stroll will just end his career much sooner! In the meantime just look at Perez and how he managed to get back up to 5th by the end...although his Quali was awful I expect him to get up to speed in due time!
Seb's crash was silly and very much a rookie mistake. His call on the radio was silly too. But being put on a one stopper by the team was the biggest silliness. No way could anyone be competitive today on a one stopper which is why no one else tried.

If that one-stopper was a team call and forced on him, then he's got no reason to feel too bad. Other than his crash, which was straight up a driver error.
The quality of Vettel's driving has deteriorated substantially in recent years. He's terrible.

Not sure why Aston Martin wanted him, but this should be Vettel's last stop in F1.

Max should have let Hamilton past at a different spot; he lost a lot of advantage letting him go where he did.

From the ridiculous to the sublime: next race, Imola!

=D>

Singabule
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Re: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

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Ringleheim wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 4:46 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:59 pm
AMG.Tzan wrote:
Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:20 pm
On the Vettel front...

I just can't understand how this man has ended up in this miserable situation since 2019! His crash today was so stupid...same as with Verstappen at Silverstone in 2019!

I was hoping that Aston Martin will help him get back up to his old self...but with this kind of incidents I get the feeling Seb is past his best a long time now! Being beaten by Stroll will just end his career much sooner! In the meantime just look at Perez and how he managed to get back up to 5th by the end...although his Quali was awful I expect him to get up to speed in due time!
Seb's crash was silly and very much a rookie mistake. His call on the radio was silly too. But being put on a one stopper by the team was the biggest silliness. No way could anyone be competitive today on a one stopper which is why no one else tried.

If that one-stopper was a team call and forced on him, then he's got no reason to feel too bad. Other than his crash, which was straight up a driver error.
The quality of Vettel's driving has deteriorated substantially in recent years. He's terrible.

Not sure why Aston Martin wanted him, but this should be Vettel's last stop in F1.

Max should have let Hamilton past at a different spot; he lost a lot of advantage letting him go where he did.

From the ridiculous to the sublime: next race, Imola!

=D>
Nah, he is just too overconfident with new Honda PU i believe :mrgreen: Too bad he got oversteer coz open the throtlle too fast

cheeRS
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Re: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

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carisi2k wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 4:42 am
The problem with this theory is that Lewis went outside the track limits 29 times in the race at turn 4. It allowed him to gain a significant advantage because it allowed him to keep in contact with Max early in the race. The rule I thought was that they would not penalise unless you gained an everlasting advantage. Lewis certainly did gain an everlasting advantage because what if Max had an extra 2-5 second gap around the pit stops. This is enough that he could have pitted the following lap and retained the lead.
Oh please. :roll:

Evidently you didn't read/watch what happened during the driver's briefing. At that meeting, Masi specifically mentioned that there was no track limits at T4 unless, and this is a quote from race director Masi:

"“if an overtake takes place with a car off track and gains a lasting advantage, I will go on the radio and suggest to the team that they immediately relinquish that position."

That is a huge difference between an overtake and simply saving a half tenth by going off track. Otherwise, every overtake could be done by simply going off track and cutting the corner. The "rule" was completely clear - that's the whole point of the drivers' briefing.

If they say, hypothetically that you can cut the chicane at Monza 5 times without penalty, and you choose to not cut the chicane at all and end up in 2nd place instead of 1st, that's you losing a fair advantage. Remember in Canada 2014 (maybe 2015) when Rosberg completely cut the final chicane twice and didn't give his position to Lewis? Yeah, people only remember when they think Lewis get's an advantage.

We could moan and complain about Verstappen waiting too long down the straight when the safety car came in and say that "it's not in the spirit of the rules" to wait that long to restart. But that was a smart move by Max, and it kept Lewis behind him. The T4 directive was made public to all drivers and teams. Many drivers went wide at T4, not just Lewis. Some drivers later admitted that it was actually faster and better on their tires to not go wide at T4.

Max admitted that he would rather pass someone illegally (off the track) and just get a penalty instead of following the rules and give the place back. Good thing his team had better sense and overruled him. That says all you need to know.

lh13
lh13
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Re: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

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El Scorchio wrote:
Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:30 pm
lh13 wrote:
Sun Mar 28, 2021 6:58 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Sun Mar 28, 2021 6:52 pm


No. It’s not ‘dominant’ or at least it wasn’t this weekend but it was still clearly faster on pure pace in like for like situations.

Don’t forget Verstappen had damage in qualifying that was claimed to cost at least a tenth and that diff problem today which still saw him pulling a two second gap in the opening laps before the alternative strategies kicked in.
Like it has been said a few times in this thread, Mercedes were always looking a bit better race-pace wise than qualifying pace. This has also been said that Mercedes were looking better on harder compounds than softer compounds. The cars are close, but RedBull is just ahead. That is my only point.
Probably going to have to agree to disagree on this as to what our different interpretations on ‘just ahead’ are. When it’s a 0.4 second qualifying gap the other way it’s usually talked about as a gulf in performance difference.
When was the last time we saw someone undercut Mercedes as easy as RedBull we undercut yesterday? You don't undercut a car that easily if it is clearly faster on pure pace in like for like situations. So yeah, let's agree to disagree.

e30ernest
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Re: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

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lh13 wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 6:28 am
El Scorchio wrote:
Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:30 pm
lh13 wrote:
Sun Mar 28, 2021 6:58 pm


Like it has been said a few times in this thread, Mercedes were always looking a bit better race-pace wise than qualifying pace. This has also been said that Mercedes were looking better on harder compounds than softer compounds. The cars are close, but RedBull is just ahead. That is my only point.
Probably going to have to agree to disagree on this as to what our different interpretations on ‘just ahead’ are. When it’s a 0.4 second qualifying gap the other way it’s usually talked about as a gulf in performance difference.
When was the last time we saw someone undercut Mercedes as easy as RedBull we undercut yesterday? You don't undercut a car that easily if it is clearly faster on pure pace in like for like situations. So yeah, let's agree to disagree.
They were able to undercut because they were just fast enough to match Max and remain in the undercut window, and because new tires were a huge advantage on the abrasive Bahrain surface. You can see how fast Max caught up with Lewis when he got fresher tires too.

dans79
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Re: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

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lh13 wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 6:28 am
When was the last time we saw someone undercut Mercedes as easy as RedBull we undercut yesterday? You don't undercut a car that easily if it is clearly faster on pure pace in like for like situations. So yeah, let's agree to disagree.
A 0.4 second qualifying gap advantage is different than a 0.4 second race pace advantage.

If you have both a qualifying and a race pace advantage, you can just start from the front and drive off into the distance. This is what Merc and most of the other dominant cars in history had/did.

If you only have a qualifying advantage, then you have to hope for two things.
1) That following in your wake, messes with their aero and tire deg enough to prevent them from getting close enough to undercut you.
2) That their race pace advantage is less than the time delta required to pull of an overtake.

If you only have a race pace advantage you have to hope for the opposite of the above.


Max had a decent qualifying advantage, but his race pace advantage (if he had one at all) wasn't enough to pull a meaningful gap to prevent the undercut. It's also safe to assume that Max's race pace wasn't fast enough to overcome the overtake delta, with tires of a similar age/construction, hence why he stayed out to try and build a tire life offset.
176 101 100 7

NL_Fer
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Re: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

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What if Max just followed both Lewis’ pitstops? He would be much closer and the guy in front.

Maybe struggle with tyre wear, but so would Hamilton.

lh13
lh13
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Re: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

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dans79 wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 6:50 am
lh13 wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 6:28 am
When was the last time we saw someone undercut Mercedes as easy as RedBull we undercut yesterday? You don't undercut a car that easily if it is clearly faster on pure pace in like for like situations. So yeah, let's agree to disagree.
A 0.4 second qualifying gap advantage is different than a 0.4 second race pace advantage.

If you have both a qualifying and a race pace advantage, you can just start from the front and drive off into the distance. This is what Merc and most of the other dominant cars in history had/did.

If you only have a qualifying advantage, then you have to hope for two things.
1) That following in your wake, messes with their aero and tire deg enough to prevent them from getting close enough to undercut you.
2) That their race pace advantage is less than the time delta required to pull of an overtake.

If you only have a race pace advantage you have to hope for the opposite of the above.


Max had a decent qualifying advantage, but his race pace advantage (if he had one at all) wasn't enough to pull a meaningful gap to prevent the undercut. It's also safe to assume that Max's race pace wasn't fast enough to overcome the overtake delta, with tires of a similar age/construction, hence why he stayed out to try and build a tire life offset.
Yes, that is exactly my point, and what I've been trying to convey to the other poster. RedBull maybe better, but only 'just'. Cars are close. RedBull is not dominant.

Edit: the part in bold is what the other poster wrote. I was trying to like quote them.
Last edited by lh13 on Mon Mar 29, 2021 7:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

lh13
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Re: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

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NL_Fer wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 7:10 am
What if Max just followed both Lewis’ pitstops? He would be much closer and the guy in front.

Maybe struggle with tyre wear, but so would Hamilton.
He would have ended up behind if he pitted the next lap, because the undercut was too strong, and then there would be no fight, as both would be on tires with the same life.

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jumpingfish
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Re: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

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It is so absurd to prohibit a wide passage through this fourth corner during practice and qualification, but to allow it in the race. If in the race it is allowed, why ban on Friday and Saturday? :wtf:

Are the drivers gaining an advantage there? Calculate exactly how much gain in tenths of a second is given by going off the track, add it to the finish time as a penalty. Will all cars drive wide? Then remove this rule and let them move as they want there.
They came up with a bunch of unnecessary rules, and then were forced to change their minds in the middle of the race.

Pany
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Re: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

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Yessss
Ringleheim wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 4:46 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:59 pm
AMG.Tzan wrote:
Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:20 pm
On the Vettel front...

I just can't understand how this man has ended up in this miserable situation since 2019! His crash today was so stupid...same as with Verstappen at Silverstone in 2019!

I was hoping that Aston Martin will help him get back up to his old self...but with this kind of incidents I get the feeling Seb is past his best a long time now! Being beaten by Stroll will just end his career much sooner! In the meantime just look at Perez and how he managed to get back up to 5th by the end...although his Quali was awful I expect him to get up to speed in due time!
Seb's crash was silly and very much a rookie mistake. His call on the radio was silly too. But being put on a one stopper by the team was the biggest silliness. No way could anyone be competitive today on a one stopper which is why no one else tried.

If that one-stopper was a team call and forced on him, then he's got no reason to feel too bad. Other than his crash, which was straight up a driver error.
The quality of Vettel's driving has deteriorated substantially in recent years. He's terrible.

Not sure why Aston Martin wanted him, but this should be Vettel's last stop in F1.

Max should have let Hamilton past at a different spot; he lost a lot of advantage letting him go where he did.

From the ridiculous to the sublime: next race, Imola!

=D>

DChemTech
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Re: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

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Mogster wrote:
Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:27 pm
DChemTech wrote:
Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:15 pm
Mogster wrote:
Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:54 pm
Abusing track limits on your own to gain 100ths and going completely off track to gain position are completely different.

I suspect RBR thought that if they maintained position then the positions could be reversed after the race (highly likely). I suspect they also thought Max would take the position back on the next lap and everything would be fine...
A gain is a gain. Doesnt matter how big it is. In soccer, if you make the ball cross the sideline, its a throw. Doesnt matter how close the nearest opponent is, where it happens, etcetera. That just makes a lot more sense to me. A track limit is a track limit, regardless of what your doing. The limits for overtaking should be the same as the limits for driving, period.
That’s not practical though is it?

Ham’s repeated abuse of track limits was called out and it stopped. You can’t punish every driver for exceeding track limits around the whole track for the whole event, it’s impractical and would turn the whole race into a penalty totting exercise.

You can’t allow overtaking outside track limits, everyone understands this... even Max. It wasn’t even a borderline case.
Why isn't it practical? It should be quite feasible to set up. The lines are clear, too. I can drive within the lines on a highway, and I'm not a particularly spectacular driver at that. Sure these guys can do it on a track, too. With pretty much every sports there is a playing field, and you play within the bounds of the field. No reason for F1 to be different.

And yeah, sure, you can opt to allow one or two minor digressions and only give warnings, and only penalize the third, like is already done now in some cases. But that last part is where the problem is: now, it is in some cases. Which corners are monitored changes per race, and apparently, mid-race. There should be absolutely no ambiguity on track limits: you stay in the lines, whole track, every corner, unless you are pushed off or avoiding an incident - and warnings should add up over all the track, not on a per-corner basis.

Now, with all that, Hamilton may still have won. And that is fine. But now, there is some controversy courtesy of the stewards (once again), and that is not fine. It afflicts what was otherwise a great race.