2021 Rules hit Mercedes hard. Not a coincidence.

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Stu
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Re: 2021 Rules hit Mercedes hard. Not a coincidence.

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The other option would have been to let them carry on ‘as they were’, including using the tyres that were already marginal (due to the teams rejecting the previous Pirelli solution). Those working the tyres hardest - making the downforce (err, the low-rake cars...) would be claiming that they are being penalised....
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RZS10
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Re: 2021 Rules hit Mercedes hard. Not a coincidence.

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:13 am
What was even more frustrating for Szafnauer was the fact the aero changes were not voted through in the official way.

If they had been subject to the unanimous route or even the new majority vote which Formula 1 now uses to agree regulation changes, they would have fallen through either way because three teams said no.

“There was never a vote, there was an indicative vote,” Szafnauer explained.

“So that was just at the technical under-committee that all the technical directors had to have an indicative vote, and three teams voted against it.

“You’ve got to remember only two teams have low-rake concept. So even one of the high-rake teams voted against it. So nowhere near unanimity and it wouldn’t have even passed on the eight out of 10 rule because we voted against.”
Yep those rules were forced via their ability to do whatever the f*** they want for "safety reasons" because the old tyres wouldn't be able to cope with the downforce of the cars, and just when those rules were decided, Pirelli and the FIA confirmed that they will use the new tyres (which no one liked when they tested them).
They couldn't have changed the rules like that had they announced the new tyres earlier, so they did it the other way round.
Merc knew that those rules would hit them hard, they voted against them, new rules came anyways so Merc just decided to go with the "well we like the challenge" act instead of complaining about it like Aston Martin but it's very clear what those rules were supposed to achieve - it def. wasn't about "safety" since the new tyres were designed to handle the old DF levels anyways.

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SiLo
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Re: 2021 Rules hit Mercedes hard. Not a coincidence.

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Surely a bit dumb to cut downforce and then introduce new tyres designed to cope with the levels of downforce that you just cut? Feel like a better compromise would be either the tyres, or the aero?

At least it has seemingly given us some good racing, but it's not like much has really changed for 90% of the grid.
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ncx
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Re: 2021 Rules hit Mercedes hard. Not a coincidence.

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Last year many teams and drivers, including Lewis, complained repeatedly about the high mandatory tyre pressure. It was also widely believed that the reduction in DF with the 2021 aero regs would have been short lived.

In 2018 Merc was the team that had the biggest problems with tyre overheating. In 2019 the tyre with thinner thread was introduced on safety grounds (no vote), which apparently benefitted Merc the most. Was that a conspiracy too?

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SiLo
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Re: 2021 Rules hit Mercedes hard. Not a coincidence.

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Who said it was a conspiracy? I think one of the main issues is Pirelli haven't been able to make the relevant changes to the tyres without completely changing the way they behave, so the teams complained and kept the old tyres.
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ncx
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Re: 2021 Rules hit Mercedes hard. Not a coincidence.

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SiLo wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:32 pm
Who said it was a conspiracy? I think one of the main issues is Pirelli haven't been able to make the relevant changes to the tyres without completely changing the way they behave, so the teams complained and kept the old tyres.
The second part of my post was directed to the general conspiratorial tone of other posts in the thread. Apologies, I should have made it clearer.

I am not trying to defend Pirelli at all, either. Unfortunately we do not have means to judge Pirelli against other manufacturers and we could end up triggering yet another hot thread about Pirelli.

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SiLo
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Re: 2021 Rules hit Mercedes hard. Not a coincidence.

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Stuck between a rock and a hard place really. They could be doing a fantastic job for all we know. We can only compare to the previous supplier Bridgestone who made bulletproof tyres with good grip, but the levels of downforce were a lot lower. Plus the design of the tyres is so far removed from most other sports we can't really compare to companies like Michelin from WEC.
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Just_a_fan
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Re: 2021 Rules hit Mercedes hard. Not a coincidence.

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SiLo wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:42 pm
Stuck between a rock and a hard place really. They could be doing a fantastic job for all we know. We can only compare to the previous supplier Bridgestone who made bulletproof tyres with good grip, but the levels of downforce were a lot lower.
Bridgestone had the benefit of unlimited testing which meant they offered tyres that were almost tailored to each circuit. And they worked hand in hand with Ferrari to make tyres that suited the car (and vice versa).

It's interesting that when the "no tyre changes during the race" rule came in, Bridgestone / Ferrari struggled and Alonso won the title. Suddenly the oh-so-great Bridgestone tyres struggled because Bridgestone had put all their effort in to designing 20 lap sprint tyres.

So those with short memories should do some remembering before they go on about how the Bridgestone days were great and Pirelli are rubbish. (This is a general comment, Silo, not aimed at you. 8) )
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SiLo
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Re: 2021 Rules hit Mercedes hard. Not a coincidence.

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:58 pm
SiLo wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:42 pm
Stuck between a rock and a hard place really. They could be doing a fantastic job for all we know. We can only compare to the previous supplier Bridgestone who made bulletproof tyres with good grip, but the levels of downforce were a lot lower.
Bridgestone had the benefit of unlimited testing which meant they offered tyres that were almost tailored to each circuit. And they worked hand in hand with Ferrari to make tyres that suited the car (and vice versa).

It's interesting that when the "no tyre changes during the race" rule came in, Bridgestone / Ferrari struggled and Alonso won the title. Suddenly the oh-so-great Bridgestone tyres struggled because Bridgestone had put all their effort in to designing 20 lap sprint tyres.

So those with short memories should do some remembering before they go on about how the Bridgestone days were great and Pirelli are rubbish. (This is a general comment, Silo, not aimed at you. 8) )
When I spoke about Bridgestone I mean the years after Michelin left. But I agree that they struggled to make tyres for 2005, but improved hugely for 2006. People bemoan the changes a lot saying the FIA nerfed Ferrari, but I bet it was also a large portion of excellent work from Michelin allowing them to make a better tyre.
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ispano6
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Re: 2021 Rules hit Mercedes hard. Not a coincidence.

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Wolff has stated that the Honda PU is likely now ahead of MB on energy recovery, so I wouldn't put it all on rules changes intended to slow Mercedes down. ALL teams are subject to the same rules after all, just like track limits. Mercedes can go high rake if they so choose and if they balance the car should be where RB is at. I'm sure they are studying the RB16b closely, but can only do what their packaging can allow. They wouldn't be able to lower the CoG of the PU so easily or make it more compact, a clear benefit to high rake cars.

ncx
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Re: 2021 Rules hit Mercedes hard. Not a coincidence.

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ncx wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:23 pm
Last year many teams and drivers, including Lewis, complained repeatedly about the high mandatory tyre pressure. It was also widely believed that the reduction in DF with the 2021 aero regs would have been short lived.

In 2018 Merc was the team that had the biggest problems with tyre overheating. In 2019 the tyre with thinner thread was introduced on safety grounds (no vote), which apparently benefitted Merc the most. Was that a conspiracy too?
Here below are a quote and a link to inform the anonym who downvoted this post of mine by stating "wrong thinner tyres were approved by every team [sic]".
Plenty more can be found with a simple search. There was no vote in 2018, let alone unanimous. Anyway, this uninteresting argument stops here for me. My point was that conjecturing a conspiracy in favour of Merc is as easy as conjecturing one against.

“We reduced the thickness of the tread for safety reasons and we will not change it this year,” said Mario Isola.
https://www.newsonf1.com/2019/06/marko- ... des-tyres/

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Morteza
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Re: 2021 Rules hit Mercedes hard. Not a coincidence.

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"A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool."~William Shakespeare

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jjn9128
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Re: 2021 Rules hit Mercedes hard. Not a coincidence.

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Aaaah Jake "manage the airflow" Boxhall-Legge. The most trusted source in the world on aerodynamics. He's so good the race guys couldn't afford his contract when they left the motorsport network :lol: :lol:
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Morteza
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Re: 2021 Rules hit Mercedes hard. Not a coincidence.

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jjn9128 wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:05 am
Aaaah Jake "manage the airflow" Boxhall-Legge. The most trusted source in the world on aerodynamics. He's so good the race guys couldn't afford his contract when they left the motorsport network :lol: :lol:
:lol: :lol: :lol: I agree
The Race guys got Gary Anderson though :mrgreen:
They also have made a video on the same subject :D
"A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool."~William Shakespeare

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2021 Rules hit Mercedes hard. Not a coincidence.

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That one is not much better... but.. erm.. I think articles by Willem Toet of Sauber are just the thing if one wants to understand the detailed workings of F1 Aero.
.. OG.. OG.. OG.. OG..
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