Why is "The Squeeze" move so frowned upon by fans?

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dans79
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Re: Why is "The Squeeze" move so frowned upon by fans?

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Squeezing the driver on the outside, on turn exit used to be very subtle and hard to get away with. However since Masi became race director, and they wanted more of a show, it's become more a neanderthals move.

In the past, if you squeezed the outside car off you basically had better ensure several of the following things.
  • That You have a significant amount of you car ahead as you exit the turn.
  • Your line has to at least look normal/plausible
  • That you stay within the track limits, the more the better.
  • Not a single hint of locking up or anything else that would suggest you aren't in full control of the car.
  • No steering movements that look questionable via the video feed or the telemetry data.
You also had to hope the stewards where feeling lenient.
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dans79
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Re: Why is "The Squeeze" move so frowned upon by fans?

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sosic2121 wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 12:18 pm
dans79 wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:45 am
It's also against the rules to make more than one blocking move, or wait till the last moment to make your move. Basically it's against the rules to do anything that has the potential to cause an accident.
Is this forbidden (and since when)?
Here are two examples that I can think of.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... Npwtd.html
“Moving under braking when another car is approaching has been identified by the drivers as a very dangerous manoeuvre,” ran the stewards’ report. “Grosjean was given a black and white flag by the Race Director for moving under braking with Sainz. The stewards reviewed this case with Grosjean and Ricciardo. They also reviewed the video of the incident between them.

“Grosjean explained that in both cases his moves were before the braking zone, although in the second case, it was closer. When it was put to the drivers that these were late moves in relation to the approaching car, or ‘Movement in Reaction’, and also potentially dangerous, they agreed on this as a general principle.

“Ricciardo agreed that this situation, while close, was manageable by him as the following driver. The stewards issued a Warning, with the admonition that late movement in reaction to drivers following is also considered potentially dangerous and will be scrutinised by the stewards.”
most likely only got away with it because Ric said it was manageable.


https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/fia-n ... 3/5290283/
Magnussen moved to the right on the start-finish straight at Suzuka just as Leclerc attempted to pass him, which resulted in contact that damaged Leclerc's Sauber and led to Magnussen's retirement.

The Haas driver escaped sanction and FIA race director Charlie Whiting later said that the stewards felt that both Magnussen and Leclerc had moved right at the same time and it was "impossible" to say Magnussen had blocked him.

But in the United States Grand Prix drivers' briefing on Friday evening, Whiting told the drivers that after reviewing the incident it had been accepted that Magnussen had moved too late.

He went on to note that drivers should be aware of the consequences of making a late move to defend if a car is approaching at a higher speed.
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Jolle
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Re: Why is "The Squeeze" move so frowned upon by fans?

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The discussion always been on who has the apex (aka turning in on someone). The corner exit seems a discussion from the last decade or so, when drivers started to don’t give way. Someone like Rosberg was notorious for this. Lost the apex, let’s his car run on the outside so the inside car would push him wide (who was on the racing line).
In normal racing it’s quite normal if a car comes on the inside at the apex, you lost the place.

sosic2121
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Re: Why is "The Squeeze" move so frowned upon by fans?

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dans79 wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:55 pm
sosic2121 wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 12:18 pm
dans79 wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:45 am
It's also against the rules to make more than one blocking move, or wait till the last moment to make your move. Basically it's against the rules to do anything that has the potential to cause an accident.
Is this forbidden (and since when)?
Here are two examples that I can think of.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... Npwtd.html
“Moving under braking when another car is approaching has been identified by the drivers as a very dangerous manoeuvre,” ran the stewards’ report. “Grosjean was given a black and white flag by the Race Director for moving under braking with Sainz. The stewards reviewed this case with Grosjean and Ricciardo. They also reviewed the video of the incident between them.

“Grosjean explained that in both cases his moves were before the braking zone, although in the second case, it was closer. When it was put to the drivers that these were late moves in relation to the approaching car, or ‘Movement in Reaction’, and also potentially dangerous, they agreed on this as a general principle.

“Ricciardo agreed that this situation, while close, was manageable by him as the following driver. The stewards issued a Warning, with the admonition that late movement in reaction to drivers following is also considered potentially dangerous and will be scrutinised by the stewards.”
most likely only got away with it because Ric said it was manageable.


https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/fia-n ... 3/5290283/
Magnussen moved to the right on the start-finish straight at Suzuka just as Leclerc attempted to pass him, which resulted in contact that damaged Leclerc's Sauber and led to Magnussen's retirement.

The Haas driver escaped sanction and FIA race director Charlie Whiting later said that the stewards felt that both Magnussen and Leclerc had moved right at the same time and it was "impossible" to say Magnussen had blocked him.

But in the United States Grand Prix drivers' briefing on Friday evening, Whiting told the drivers that after reviewing the incident it had been accepted that Magnussen had moved too late.

He went on to note that drivers should be aware of the consequences of making a late move to defend if a car is approaching at a higher speed.
Thank you for your effort!

There should be a rule that forbids such moves.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Why is "The Squeeze" move so frowned upon by fans?

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politburo wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:46 am
I saw an old video of Michael Schumacher squeezing Rubens Barrichello (i.e showing him the wall) at the 2012 Hungarian Grand Prix, I tend to be of the opinion it is not a bad move unless done very late when the driver is already side-by-side when you start squeezing. But why is it still so frowned upon and considered a dirty move to squeeze someone?. I find it entertaining and logical, you always want the inside line going into the corner so you squeeze the other drive into not taking such a line. Would love to know from anyone of the opposite opinion why they consider it a dirty move as that is usually the comment I see in the YouTube comments when someone is squeezed.
Got to stop you right there. That Move by schumacher is waaay different to hanging out to dry to squeezing someone off land. Three different things all together. And I'm no racing driver but been watching long enough.
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politburo
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Re: Why is "The Squeeze" move so frowned upon by fans?

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:52 pm
politburo wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:46 am
I saw an old video of Michael Schumacher squeezing Rubens Barrichello (i.e showing him the wall) at the 2012 Hungarian Grand Prix, I tend to be of the opinion it is not a bad move unless done very late when the driver is already side-by-side when you start squeezing. But why is it still so frowned upon and considered a dirty move to squeeze someone?. I find it entertaining and logical, you always want the inside line going into the corner so you squeeze the other drive into not taking such a line. Would love to know from anyone of the opposite opinion why they consider it a dirty move as that is usually the comment I see in the YouTube comments when someone is squeezed.
Got to stop you right there. That Move by schumacher is waaay different to hanging out to dry to squeezing someone off land. Three different things all together. And I'm no racing driver but been watching long enough.

You haven't explained why though. Explain why is it what Schumacher did was different?.
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El Scorchio
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Re: Why is "The Squeeze" move so frowned upon by fans?

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politburo wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:41 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:52 pm
politburo wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:46 am
I saw an old video of Michael Schumacher squeezing Rubens Barrichello (i.e showing him the wall) at the 2012 Hungarian Grand Prix, I tend to be of the opinion it is not a bad move unless done very late when the driver is already side-by-side when you start squeezing. But why is it still so frowned upon and considered a dirty move to squeeze someone?. I find it entertaining and logical, you always want the inside line going into the corner so you squeeze the other drive into not taking such a line. Would love to know from anyone of the opposite opinion why they consider it a dirty move as that is usually the comment I see in the YouTube comments when someone is squeezed.
Got to stop you right there. That Move by schumacher is waaay different to hanging out to dry to squeezing someone off land. Three different things all together. And I'm no racing driver but been watching long enough.

You haven't explained why though. Explain why is it what Schumacher did was different?.
There's a wall there. I'm sure you can work out why that makes it different and much more dangerous as to squeezing someone to the limit of the track when there is no wall present.

politburo
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Re: Why is "The Squeeze" move so frowned upon by fans?

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I found this document which details the rules of driver conduct in Chapter IV.

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... e_2020.pdf

As it pertains to overtaking they say:

"However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other
drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car
beyond the edge of the track or any other
abnormal change of direction, are strictly
prohibited. Any driver who appears guilty of
any of the above offences will be reported to
the Stewards."

Which is fairly ambiguous, but I think for blocking moves such as when you squeeze someone to the edge of the track like Mick did to Mazepin or block someone from overtaking by weaving or by showing someone the wall they say:

"More than one change of direction to defend
a position is not permitted."
"A driver may not leave the track without
justifiable reason."

So it may actually be legal to defend and not give the other driver a car's width if he is not already side by side. But if the attacking car is already to the outside of the leading car then th leading car must give a car's width there. Interesting.
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politburo
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Re: Why is "The Squeeze" move so frowned upon by fans?

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El Scorchio wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:47 am
politburo wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:41 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:52 pm


Got to stop you right there. That Move by schumacher is waaay different to hanging out to dry to squeezing someone off land. Three different things all together. And I'm no racing driver but been watching long enough.

You haven't explained why though. Explain why is it what Schumacher did was different?.
There's a wall there. I'm sure you can work out why that makes it different and much more dangerous as to squeezing someone to the limit of the track when there is no wall present.
I am unsure if I would use that rationale of there being a wall. The wall is not directly adjacent to the edge of the track i.e. the white line there. After reading the sporting code and watching the video again Schumacher would et a penalty since he did not give a car's width to the white line, in fact he pushed Barrichello over the white line completely as none of his wheels are inside it. This is an example of squeezing done badly, but the nuance would be that Schumi had already taken that line and Barrichello still chose to follow him when could have just gone on the outside and easily overtaken.

https://ibb.co/FwbskhN

But done well,

https://ibb.co/F7wnwJC
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El Scorchio
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Re: Why is "The Squeeze" move so frowned upon by fans?

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politburo wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 11:03 am
El Scorchio wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:47 am
politburo wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:41 am


You haven't explained why though. Explain why is it what Schumacher did was different?.
There's a wall there. I'm sure you can work out why that makes it different and much more dangerous as to squeezing someone to the limit of the track when there is no wall present.
I am unsure if I would use that rationale of there being a wall. The wall is not directly adjacent to the edge of the track i.e. the white line there. After reading the sporting code and watching the video again Schumacher would et a penalty since he did not give a car's width to the white line, in fact he pushed Barrichello over the white line completely as none of his wheels are inside it. This is an example of squeezing done badly, but the nuance would be that Schumi had already taken that line and Barrichello still chose to follow him when could have just gone on the outside and easily overtaken.

https://ibb.co/FwbskhN

But done well,

https://ibb.co/F7wnwJC
Well dare I say it, you might be in a minority of one or very close to it if you think that wall and the clear, massive danger it adds to the situation isn't the reason why that particular move is infamous and so frowned upon.

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NathanOlder
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Re: Why is "The Squeeze" move so frowned upon by fans?

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politburo wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 11:03 am
El Scorchio wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:47 am
politburo wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:41 am


You haven't explained why though. Explain why is it what Schumacher did was different?.
There's a wall there. I'm sure you can work out why that makes it different and much more dangerous as to squeezing someone to the limit of the track when there is no wall present.
I am unsure if I would use that rationale of there being a wall. The wall is not directly adjacent to the edge of the track i.e. the white line there. After reading the sporting code and watching the video again Schumacher would et a penalty since he did not give a car's width to the white line, in fact he pushed Barrichello over the white line completely as none of his wheels are inside it. This is an example of squeezing done badly, but the nuance would be that Schumi had already taken that line and Barrichello still chose to follow him when could have just gone on the outside and easily overtaken.

https://ibb.co/FwbskhN

But done well,

https://ibb.co/F7wnwJC
As dans79 pointed out on page 1, Rubens had his front axle level with Michaels rear axle while both cars were 100% on the race track. At this point Michael should leave a full cars width.

Image

After this he continued to move right, all the way to the white line. Leaving zero space for Rubens. Add the fact that the wall was getting very close, dangerously close. Schumacher received a big grid penalty in the next race, and I remember the stewards saying they considered DSQ'ing Michael right there and then , and rightfully so. This move wasn't a squeeze, it was a barbaric attempt to scare Rubens off. Either that or Michael had no idea what was going on around him.
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Just_a_fan
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Re: Why is "The Squeeze" move so frowned upon by fans?

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Michael was of that generation that figured the cars were just amazingly safe - thanks to the aftermath of Senna's death - and so would push things thinking "if it goes wrong he'll be ok". I think back to the late 90s/early 2000s and there were some huge accidents that would have been lethal in the70s and even the 80s. Brundle in Melbourne in 96, for example, and Trulli in 04 at Silverstone.

The current drivers are back to being more aware of the consequences, because we have seen some accidents where things didn't go so well - Massa's freak accident, for example, and the deaths of drivers in junior formulae.

I think it doesn't help that Schumacher was a bit dirty - hit Hill, hit Villeneuve, Monaco "parking" etc. - but I think he's just a product of his times.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Why is "The Squeeze" move so frowned upon by fans?

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politburo wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 11:03 am
El Scorchio wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:47 am
politburo wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:41 am


You haven't explained why though. Explain why is it what Schumacher did was different?.
There's a wall there. I'm sure you can work out why that makes it different and much more dangerous as to squeezing someone to the limit of the track when there is no wall present.
I am unsure if I would use that rationale of there being a wall. The wall is not directly adjacent to the edge of the track i.e. the white line there. After reading the sporting code and watching the video again Schumacher would et a penalty since he did not give a car's width to the white line, in fact he pushed Barrichello over the white line completely as none of his wheels are inside it. This is an example of squeezing done badly, but the nuance would be that Schumi had already taken that line and Barrichello still chose to follow him when could have just gone on the outside and easily overtaken.

https://ibb.co/FwbskhN

But done well,

https://ibb.co/F7wnwJC
You answered it.

There is a move with Hamilton and Ricciardo Monaco. Hamilton got away with it for the same reason; he left a car's width.

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NL_Fer
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Re: Why is "The Squeeze" move so frowned upon by fans?

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This move was dangerous, because it left Barrichello with no place to go. He could not even brake. If the a front wheel would touch the others car rear wheel, it could send a car in the air.

Sevach
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Re: Why is "The Squeeze" move so frowned upon by fans?

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:54 am
Michael was of that generation that figured the cars were just amazingly safe - thanks to the aftermath of Senna's death - and so would push things thinking "if it goes wrong he'll be ok". I think back to the late 90s/early 2000s and there were some huge accidents that would have been lethal in the70s and even the 80s. Brundle in Melbourne in 96, for example, and Trulli in 04 at Silverstone.

The current drivers are back to being more aware of the consequences, because we have seen some accidents where things didn't go so well - Massa's freak accident, for example, and the deaths of drivers in junior formulae.

I think it doesn't help that Schumacher was a bit dirty - hit Hill, hit Villeneuve, Monaco "parking" etc. - but I think he's just a product of his times.
I'll never forget how on the previous lap from the move with Zonta in between them, Schumacher gave Mika the mother of all blocking manouvers/late squeezes.
He got away with it repeatedly too in his pre-Mercedes days, there was just no rule on how late you could be in picking your one defensive move.
MSC is pretty much the reason we have a pick your line early rule.

The super champs tend to push the boundaries i would say, the no Zig-Zags pretty much came along because of Senna.
Rule makers also tend to be slow to catch on, Schumacher had to make a comeback to finally get caught in the rule created after his patented move.