2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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epo
epo
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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MKlaus wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:28 am
bigblue wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 11:49 pm
MKlaus wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 4:47 pm
there is nothing in RB16B, other than some of the balance issues that plagued in the last years aren't there and importantly, mercedes have regressed more than red bull
Quite a strange way of looking at it (if I interpret this correctly as meaning something along the lines of the RB16B being "just" a minor tidy-yp of the RB16, but the main thing is that Mercedes were hamstrung by the regulation changes - maybe you didn't mean that, but it sort of reads that way to me).

Everyone regressed due to the regulation changes. The challenge was then to advance again from that. So maybe Red Bull just did a better job over winter. On the other hand, maybe the above interpretation is right, and the changes hit Mercedes harder than Red Bull and so they were disadvantaged more, and despite gaining a similar amount they still lost out. You'd also have to factor in that they also started from a better position before the changes.

If nothing else, Honda seem to have made a massive effort that incudes packaging enhancements, which helps to allow the redesigned rear end of the RB16B, so there's quite a lot of work there alone from both car and engine.
the regulations change intended to cut 10% downforce from the car, which is anywhere from 1 second to 1.5 seconds and they increased the tyre size by 3 kgs, which is worth a tenth of two. it makes the cumulative losses (on the higher scale) around 1.7 seconds.
consider honda has added 3 tenths with their power improvement and allowed another 2 tenths for packaging, then the losses should have been around 1.2 seconds. what we saw in bahrain was, rb16b was down by 1.5 seconds in quali trim compared to rb16.
mercedes w12 was down by little over 2 seconds compared to w11. that tells you, rb didn't improve significantly, despite honda offering more power and packaging flexibility. it's mercedes that regressed more. that is why i said, rb16b is refined on balance issues, but down on chassis performance. nothing really seems to have recovered on chassis side from the loss of performance.
if you don't read it as if someone is against red bull and all that sort, you might find a good perspective of what i am saying.
Yeah so what are you trying to say?

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godlameroso
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Tires deform differently under load. It's going to take a few races for teams to get on top of these aero regulations. Everyone should be settled in by France.
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etusch
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Red Bull Racing's Motorsport Consultant Helmut Marko said that Max Verstappen, who was in the lead in the first stint of the Bahrain GP, lost around 0.3 seconds per lap due to the problem with the gearbox.

Verstappen, who started the race from pole position and became the leader in the first laps, told the team that he had a problem in the traction of the vehicle from the radio and to check this. This issue did not progress in the following section and it is not explained exactly what the problem is.
google translate translation.

https://tr.motorsport.com/f1/news/verst ... s/6060731/

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Wouter
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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etusch wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:23 pm
Red Bull Racing's Motorsport Consultant Helmut Marko said that Max Verstappen, who was in the lead in the first stint of the Bahrain GP, lost around 0.3 seconds per lap due to the problem with the gearbox.

Verstappen, who started the race from pole position and became the leader in the first laps, told the team that he had a problem in the traction of the vehicle from the radio and to check this. This issue did not progress in the following section and it is not explained exactly what the problem is.
google translate translation.

https://tr.motorsport.com/f1/news/verst ... s/6060731/
This isn't correct from Motorsport. What they write is from this interview
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=29593&p=962799#p962799
and there Marko said it was due to the differential problem in sector 1 >>> 0.3 sec.
Later on they write it correct:
"The more serious problem was the problems we had at the differential side at the beginning of the race. In sector 1, he was losing a serious amount of time of 0.3 seconds per lap. Per did the same. He had less grip, and the rear tires were turning too much and getting hot."

Curbstone
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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MKlaus wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:28 am
bigblue wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 11:49 pm
MKlaus wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 4:47 pm
there is nothing in RB16B, other than some of the balance issues that plagued in the last years aren't there and importantly, mercedes have regressed more than red bull
Quite a strange way of looking at it (if I interpret this correctly as meaning something along the lines of the RB16B being "just" a minor tidy-yp of the RB16, but the main thing is that Mercedes were hamstrung by the regulation changes - maybe you didn't mean that, but it sort of reads that way to me).

Everyone regressed due to the regulation changes. The challenge was then to advance again from that. So maybe Red Bull just did a better job over winter. On the other hand, maybe the above interpretation is right, and the changes hit Mercedes harder than Red Bull and so they were disadvantaged more, and despite gaining a similar amount they still lost out. You'd also have to factor in that they also started from a better position before the changes.

If nothing else, Honda seem to have made a massive effort that incudes packaging enhancements, which helps to allow the redesigned rear end of the RB16B, so there's quite a lot of work there alone from both car and engine.
the regulations change intended to cut 10% downforce from the car, which is anywhere from 1 second to 1.5 seconds and they increased the tyre size by 3 kgs, which is worth a tenth of two. it makes the cumulative losses (on the higher scale) around 1.7 seconds.
consider honda has added 3 tenths with their power improvement and allowed another 2 tenths for packaging, then the losses should have been around 1.2 seconds. what we saw in bahrain was, rb16b was down by 1.5 seconds in quali trim compared to rb16.
mercedes w12 was down by little over 2 seconds compared to w11. that tells you, rb didn't improve significantly, despite honda offering more power and packaging flexibility. it's mercedes that regressed more. that is why i said, rb16b is refined on balance issues, but down on chassis performance. nothing really seems to have recovered on chassis side from the loss of performance.
if you don't read it as if someone is against red bull and all that sort, you might find a good perspective of what i am saying.
You are neglecting the difference in weather etc. between this year and last year. Maybe that's also worth a second or something....? It's a bit silly to conclude about regression while not taking this into account...

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etusch
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Wouter wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:40 pm
etusch wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:23 pm
Red Bull Racing's Motorsport Consultant Helmut Marko said that Max Verstappen, who was in the lead in the first stint of the Bahrain GP, lost around 0.3 seconds per lap due to the problem with the gearbox.

Verstappen, who started the race from pole position and became the leader in the first laps, told the team that he had a problem in the traction of the vehicle from the radio and to check this. This issue did not progress in the following section and it is not explained exactly what the problem is.
google translate translation.

https://tr.motorsport.com/f1/news/verst ... s/6060731/
This isn't correct from Motorsport. What they write is from this interview
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=29593&p=962799#p962799
and there Marko said it was due to the differential problem in sector 1 >>> 0.3 sec.
Later on they write it correct:
"The more serious problem was the problems we had at the differential side at the beginning of the race. In sector 1, he was losing a serious amount of time of 0.3 seconds per lap. Per did the same. He had less grip, and the rear tires were turning too much and getting hot."
I know it was differential but just copy past intead of correcting wrong parts of news. The important thing in here is there was an issue cost them 0.3 sec.

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Wouter
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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etusch wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 8:04 pm
Wouter wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:40 pm
This isn't correct from Motorsport. What they write is from this interview
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=29593&p=962799#p962799
and there Marko said it was due to the differential problem in sector 1 >>> 0.3 sec.
Later on they write it correct:
"The more serious problem was the problems we had at the differential side at the beginning of the race. In sector 1, he was losing a serious amount of time of 0.3 seconds per lap. Per did the same. He had less grip, and the rear tires were turning too much and getting hot."
I know it was differential but just copy past intead of correcting wrong parts of news.
The important thing in here is there was an issue cost them 0.3 sec.
You are right @Etusch!
It was only an addition to your quotes, in which Motorsport itself made a small mistake.
They took it out of the interview, but they didn't render it properly one time. Can happen. No problem. :wink:

MKlaus
MKlaus
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Curbstone wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 8:01 pm
MKlaus wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:28 am
bigblue wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 11:49 pm

Quite a strange way of looking at it (if I interpret this correctly as meaning something along the lines of the RB16B being "just" a minor tidy-yp of the RB16, but the main thing is that Mercedes were hamstrung by the regulation changes - maybe you didn't mean that, but it sort of reads that way to me).

Everyone regressed due to the regulation changes. The challenge was then to advance again from that. So maybe Red Bull just did a better job over winter. On the other hand, maybe the above interpretation is right, and the changes hit Mercedes harder than Red Bull and so they were disadvantaged more, and despite gaining a similar amount they still lost out. You'd also have to factor in that they also started from a better position before the changes.

If nothing else, Honda seem to have made a massive effort that incudes packaging enhancements, which helps to allow the redesigned rear end of the RB16B, so there's quite a lot of work there alone from both car and engine.
the regulations change intended to cut 10% downforce from the car, which is anywhere from 1 second to 1.5 seconds and they increased the tyre size by 3 kgs, which is worth a tenth of two. it makes the cumulative losses (on the higher scale) around 1.7 seconds.
consider honda has added 3 tenths with their power improvement and allowed another 2 tenths for packaging, then the losses should have been around 1.2 seconds. what we saw in bahrain was, rb16b was down by 1.5 seconds in quali trim compared to rb16.
mercedes w12 was down by little over 2 seconds compared to w11. that tells you, rb didn't improve significantly, despite honda offering more power and packaging flexibility. it's mercedes that regressed more. that is why i said, rb16b is refined on balance issues, but down on chassis performance. nothing really seems to have recovered on chassis side from the loss of performance.
if you don't read it as if someone is against red bull and all that sort, you might find a good perspective of what i am saying.
You are neglecting the difference in weather etc. between this year and last year. Maybe that's also worth a second or something....? It's a bit silly to conclude about regression while not taking this into account...
i have looked into f1 timing app for those parameters from last year and this, the weather (wind/air temp/track temp) wasn't any different between the two qualifying and races.

Cassius
Cassius
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Most of RBs chassis gains were already on their car during Bahrain 2020 as they continued to develop the car during 2020.

Also, maybe the Honda had more engine life left last year during the Bahrain GP than the Merc.

So I am not sure you can draw the conclusion that RB did a poor job on the chassis side.

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Mattchu
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Cassius wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:15 am
Most of RBs chassis gains were already on their car during Bahrain 2020 as they continued to develop the car during 2020.

Also, maybe the Honda had more engine life left last year during the Bahrain GP than the Merc.

So I am not sure you can draw the conclusion that RB did a poor job on the chassis side.
Why even say this? There is nowhere that I can see that anyone has said Red Bull did a poor job on the chassis, infact it`s quite the opposite "RB16b is refined on balance issues".

Some [if it`s the team/driver they follow] always seems to think that any slight dissection/discussion is team xyz did a rubbish job when that is rarely the case.

Red Bull and Mercedes are ahead of the pack at the moment, this was the first race, on a very abrasive circuit with completely new tyres, the weekend showed us that the cars have closed up slightly which has got to be good for us as fans of the sport...

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ispano6
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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bigblue wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 11:49 pm
MKlaus wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 4:47 pm
there is nothing in RB16B, other than some of the balance issues that plagued in the last years aren't there and importantly, mercedes have regressed more than red bull
Quite a strange way of looking at it (if I interpret this correctly as meaning something along the lines of the RB16B being "just" a minor tidy-yp of the RB16, but the main thing is that Mercedes were hamstrung by the regulation changes - maybe you didn't mean that, but it sort of reads that way to me).

Everyone regressed due to the regulation changes. The challenge was then to advance again from that. So maybe Red Bull just did a better job over winter. On the other hand, maybe the above interpretation is right, and the changes hit Mercedes harder than Red Bull and so they were disadvantaged more, and despite gaining a similar amount they still lost out. You'd also have to factor in that they also started from a better position before the changes.

If nothing else, Honda seem to have made a massive effort that incudes packaging enhancements, which helps to allow the redesigned rear end of the RB16B, so there's quite a lot of work there alone from both car and engine.
Here's the data from Bahrain 2020 vs 2021. Of course, take it with a grain of salt as the time of year and other conditions would factor in, such as tire compound changes, wind etc. Looking at the numbers it's obvious EVERYONE was affected by the regulation changes. All cars lost the same proportional outer floor area, and the cars with the longer wheelbases and larger floor surface area were affected more. The teams that have the smaller deltas made larger gains in engine power and or packaging that enabled them to claw back more lap time from the outer floor area loss all of the teams were subject to.

順位 チーム(team) 2020年 2021年 変動 (delta)
1.Ferrari________________________1:29.137__1:29.678__+ 0.541秒
2.Alfa Romeo____________________1:29.491__1:30.708__+ 1.217秒
3.Red Bull_______________________1:27.678__1:28.997__+ 1.319秒
4.Alpha Tauri____________________1:28.448__1:29.809__+ 1.361秒
5.McLaren_______________________1:28.542__1:29.927__+ 1.385秒
6.Alpine_________________________1:28.417__1:30.249__+ 1.832秒
7.Williams_______________________1:29.294__1:31.316__+ 2.022秒
8.Mercedes______________________1:27.264__1:29.385__+ 2.121秒
9.Aston Martin___________________1:28.322__1:30.601__+ 2.279秒
10.Haas_________________________1:30.111__1:32.449__+ 2.338秒

From Tanabe:
Speaking after the Bahrain Grand Prix, Tanabe opened up on what specific changes have been made to the power unit, and why they have been such a help for Red Bull.

“The camshaft position has been lowered, and we have lowered the engine height,” he explained. “It is a compact package.

“As a result, when the engine is installed in the chassis, the degree of freedom of the airflow flowing inside the car is increased. In other words, it has contributed to the aerodynamics.

“It's hard to come up with exact numbers as to how much downforce has increased and how much lap time has been improved, but [Adrian] Newey said that he was grateful for the power unit being more compact and it contributing to the new installation.”
Image
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hond ... o/6094099/

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Wouter
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Interesting article. https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/why- ... s/6113325/

At the Bahrain GP the FIA's technical department introduced a new weapon in its ongoing fight to police the increasingly complex Formula 1 technical regulations.

After every race this season, the FIA will select a finishing car at random and subject it to a deeper level of checks and analysis than is usually the case, focussing on particular areas.

Cars are not examined in detail every weekend. For example, after the race in Bahrain all finishing cars were weighed, and all underwent a series of tests of parameters related to how their power units were operated during the race.

However, only the Red Bull of Sergio Perez and the AlphaTauri of Yuki Tsunoda were subject to extensive checks of every possible dimension. In addition, nine cars were checked specifically for oil consumption, and oil samples were taken from the Mercedes of Lewis Hamilton and Red Bull of Max Verstappen. Hamilton's car also donated a fuel sample.

"The reason for this process is because obviously cars have become more and more complicated, and very difficult to dismantle," says the FIA's head of single-seater technical matters, Nikolas Tombazis.

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godlameroso
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Cassius wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:15 am
Most of RBs chassis gains were already on their car during Bahrain 2020 as they continued to develop the car during 2020.

Also, maybe the Honda had more engine life left last year during the Bahrain GP than the Merc.

So I am not sure you can draw the conclusion that RB did a poor job on the chassis side.
The new engine and transmission has helped tremendously in rear stability. Last year they had to make compromises on the suspension settings, making the rear end more stiff, because there was a little flex in the back. This year they can make the suspension more compliant because the engine and transmission are stiffer, lighter, more compact, and a lower center of gravity. This greatly aids rear stability.

By increasing the space for air to flow inside the bodywork, the higher the pressure inside the bodywork becomes. We saw a glimpse of this when Perez's engine cover blew off the car. Once he pulled out of the slipstream the pressure inside the car increased dramatically. It is this pressure difference that helps airflow stay attached to the engine cover.

You see the air inside the car is moving slower than the air over the car, because there are fewer obstructions over the bodywork than through it. This air is also being heated by the heat exchangers which further increases the pressure of the engine cover. This high pressure high temperature air will do everything it can to leave the bodywork, the little gills and slits on the bodywork help cooling by lowering the duct inlet pressure to allow more air in the bodywork before the main duct becomes "pressure saturated"
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

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Sieper
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Perez hit the rear of Latifi. Here the images, ignore the comments



And here Helmut Marko confirming the fact, Dutch language site

https://www.f1maximaal.nl/formule-1/mar ... -behuizing

It was not due to air pressure (differences) it was particles damaging it. Once a tiny part is then caught by the wind it can rip off like we saw.
Just a personal interest, a Family recreating a WW2 May 1940 Dutch warbird from scratch: https://www.facebook.com/FlyingFokkerD21/

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dren
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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godlameroso wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:41 pm
The new engine and transmission has helped tremendously in rear stability. Last year they had to make compromises on the suspension settings, making the rear end more stiff, because there was a little flex in the back. This year they can make the suspension more compliant because the engine and transmission are stiffer, lighter, more compact, and a lower center of gravity. This greatly aids rear stability.

By increasing the space for air to flow inside the bodywork, the higher the pressure inside the bodywork becomes. We saw a glimpse of this when Perez's engine cover blew off the car. Once he pulled out of the slipstream the pressure inside the car increased dramatically. It is this pressure difference that helps airflow stay attached to the engine cover.
I'd wager their rear issue was aero related but I don't know. I find it hard to believe the PU was not stiff enough.

Not quite sure what you're getting at in the second paragraph. Increasing internal volume for air flow should drop the pressure. I have no clue how a pressure difference inside the body work helps flow stay attached to the engine cover.
Honda!