Red Bull RB16B

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Wouter
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Re: Red Bull RB16B

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From the data that emerged after Formula 1 pre-season testing and at first race in Bahrain, the Red Bull RB16B turned out to be the best single-seater in all conditions, despite the final victory slipping through its hands by a whisker to Mercedes.

Red Bull certainly appears to have lost the least rear downforce with its car looking very stable at the rear in Bahrain, which not only helps with downforce, but also tyre wear and heating.

Several teams on the grid have tried to copy Red Bull’s high rake set-up at one point, but few have managed to exploit it in quite the same way Newey and his team have, often returning to their previous concepts.
https://www.motorsportweek.com/2021/04/ ... -red-bull/

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ispano6
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Interesting bit about the RB16b rear suspension.
Red Bull have managed to sweep their rear suspension back in quite a similar way to how Mercedes managed it last year when there were no restrictions and when they could therefore place the mounting points anywhere they chose.

But Red Bull have done it while retaining the existing mounting points and thereby not incurring development token spend in this area. Red Bull were already mounting the rearward wishbone very far back, but with the RB16B they have also been able to also move the forward leg back.

Sweeping the rear suspension further back has freed up a big volume of space which is hugely valuable real estate for the aerodynamicists as they strive to direct the airflow from the sidepods to the space between the rear tyre and diffuser wall. The faster they can induce this to flow, the harder it will scavenge the air from inside the diffuser as it passes around and behind it.

Image

The toe link picks up from the top wishbone at the wheel end as before, but as it extends down it now goes forward to pick up at the mounting point previously used for the forward leg of the bottom wishbone (wishbone in yellow).

So where has the bottom wishbone gone with its forward mounting point now stolen by the toe link? The forward leg of the bottom wishbone has been reversed, picking up at the same point at the wheel but now angled backwards to pick up inboard at what was previously the mounting point for the rear leg. The rear leg of the wishbone picks up inboard at what was previously the mount for the toe link.

It has meant that the angle between the front and rear legs of the wishbones is much narrower and will therefore not be as inherently strong, and so will need to be heavier to compensate. But it gets the bulky wishbones out of the most aerodynamically sensitive area and moves them back.

It’s a highly ingenious mechanical solution to the development token restriction – while its aerodynamic value has probably only been enhanced by the regulation floor restriction.
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... 0lKA6.html

zibby43
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Re: Red Bull RB16B

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marcush
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Re: Red Bull RB16B

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that sketch of the rb16b rear suspension layout is nonsense :
the pickuppoints are the same inboard as before ( not so in reality )

+The lower wishbone is now two part Which leads to 2 mounting points on the
upright for lower wishbone and one for the Toe link + upper mount of the upright
to the upper wishbone....thats 4mounting points ...which one of the links is the “bending “ one , as with this
setup a toelink for adjustment is not possible ,there is bind ....

marcush
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Re: Red Bull RB16B

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godlameroso wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 8:01 pm
marcush wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:21 am
I fail to see how 1mm more or less toe should affect aero in any meaningfull way , if that was the case the car would simply be impossible to drive in a straight line as any minor correction on the steering wheel would umsettle the car big time.
Big steering input ( also known as induced slip angle) can have aero effects , especially with front suspension and steering geometries aimed at changing rideheights , tyre sidewall deformation under load etc.
static Toe settings add or deduct artificial slip angle to the tyre ,so there is
an influence to be found on how much grip is available as a tyre is slip angle sensitive (there is a optimum slip angle for a given vertical load )
This vertical load -optimum slip angle relation is mirrored in anti ackerman steering geometry : the lesser loaded inner front wheel has more grip with less
slip angle ,thus it makes sense to not steer it “correctly “ but keep it a bit too straight .Thats all depending on specific tyre caracteristics.
When your suspension shows bump steer characteristics , your grip will change through suspension travel as the tyre changes slip angle ...but On an aero car the influence of underfloor ride height change induced vertical load fluctuations is your main enemy .
One quarter of a degree of toe is ~6mm one degree of toe is 4 times that amount, it's not insignificant.
If you run 6mm toe in or toe out this will kill your tyres in no time with a radial tyre toe is not asjusted in degrees , it's
measured as mm or minutes (if you use degrees).
The basic idea is : toe is forced /geometric slip angle ,eg a radial racing tyre is producing maximum grip at say something like 6° slipangle ( depending on vertical force) .
if you preload your tyres with artificial slipangle the result is you produce heat
not grip , as you have to look at all 4 tyres ...the additional angle helps on one side put has also an effect ,most likely an unwanted on the other side of the car.
THIS is the reason for Anti Ackerman steering geometry !
The higher loaded outer tyre wants more
slip angle for max grip the less loaded inner wheel wants less slip angle for max grip .
A tyre at 7° slipangle is at max lateral grip ......so cannot transmit much in terms of longitudinal force ..so toe in and out is also affecting your braking and acceleration.
no wonder Merc had DAS ...there was a lot to be gained...

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godlameroso
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Re: Red Bull RB16B

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Image
marcush wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:58 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 8:01 pm
marcush wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:21 am
I fail to see how 1mm more or less toe should affect aero in any meaningfull way , if that was the case the car would simply be impossible to drive in a straight line as any minor correction on the steering wheel would umsettle the car big time.
Big steering input ( also known as induced slip angle) can have aero effects , especially with front suspension and steering geometries aimed at changing rideheights , tyre sidewall deformation under load etc.
static Toe settings add or deduct artificial slip angle to the tyre ,so there is
an influence to be found on how much grip is available as a tyre is slip angle sensitive (there is a optimum slip angle for a given vertical load )
This vertical load -optimum slip angle relation is mirrored in anti ackerman steering geometry : the lesser loaded inner front wheel has more grip with less
slip angle ,thus it makes sense to not steer it “correctly “ but keep it a bit too straight .Thats all depending on specific tyre caracteristics.
When your suspension shows bump steer characteristics , your grip will change through suspension travel as the tyre changes slip angle ...but On an aero car the influence of underfloor ride height change induced vertical load fluctuations is your main enemy .
One quarter of a degree of toe is ~6mm one degree of toe is 4 times that amount, it's not insignificant.
If you run 6mm toe in or toe out this will kill your tyres in no time with a radial tyre toe is not asjusted in degrees , it's
measured as mm or minutes (if you use degrees).
The basic idea is : toe is forced /geometric slip angle ,eg a radial racing tyre is producing maximum grip at say something like 6° slipangle ( depending on vertical force) .
if you preload your tyres with artificial slipangle the result is you produce heat
not grip , as you have to look at all 4 tyres ...the additional angle helps on one side put has also an effect ,most likely an unwanted on the other side of the car.
THIS is the reason for Anti Ackerman steering geometry !
The higher loaded outer tyre wants more
slip angle for max grip the less loaded inner wheel wants less slip angle for max grip .
A tyre at 7° slipangle is at max lateral grip ......so cannot transmit much in terms of longitudinal force ..so toe in and out is also affecting your braking and acceleration.
no wonder Merc had DAS ...there was a lot to be gained...
6mm toe is spec on the rear suspension of my s2k, I get about 16,000km out of 200 tread wear tires that I beat the crap out of every chance I get on Auto-x and track days. About double that with 300 tread wear tires. Again 6mm of toe in is ONE QUARTER OF A DEGREE OF TOE IN, as in 1/4. It's not uncommon for F1 to run half a degree of toe, IE 12mm IE half a freakin' inch.

Image

Also in a win for the Imperial system, you can see that 1 inch is roughly 1 degree of toe.

6 degrees of toe would be 6 inches of toe, 25.4mm per inch, so that would be about 150mm of toe. Maths are important bruh.
Saishū kōnā

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nzjrs
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Re: Red Bull RB16B

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re Toe:


marcush
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Re: Red Bull RB16B

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godlameroso wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:56 pm
marcush wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:58 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 8:01 pm


One quarter of a degree of toe is ~6mm one degree of toe is 4 times that amount, it's not insignificant.
If you run 6mm toe in or toe out this will kill your tyres in no time with a radial tyre toe is not asjusted in degrees , it's
measured as mm or minutes (if you use degrees).
The basic idea is : toe is forced /geometric slip angle ,eg a radial racing tyre is producing maximum grip at say something like 6° slipangle ( depending on vertical force) .
if you preload your tyres with artificial slipangle the result is you produce heat
not grip , as you have to look at all 4 tyres ...the additional angle helps on one side put has also an effect ,most likely an unwanted on the other side of the car.
THIS is the reason for Anti Ackerman steering geometry !
The higher loaded outer tyre wants more
slip angle for max grip the less loaded inner wheel wants less slip angle for max grip .
A tyre at 7° slipangle is at max lateral grip ......so cannot transmit much in terms of longitudinal force ..so toe in and out is also affecting your braking and acceleration.
no wonder Merc had DAS ...there was a lot to be gained...
6mm toe is spec on the rear suspension of my s2k, I get about 16,000km out of 200 tread wear tires that I beat the crap out of every chance I get on Auto-x and track days. About double that with 300 tread wear tires. Again 6mm of toe in is ONE QUARTER OF A DEGREE OF TOE IN, as in 1/4. It's not uncommon for F1 to run half a degree of toe, IE 12mm IE half a freakin' inch.

https://files.catbox.moe/7jboo1.jpg

Also in a win for the Imperial system, you can see that 1 inch is roughly 1 degree of toe.

6 degrees of toe would be 6 inches of toe, 25.4mm per inch, so that would be about 150mm of toe. Maths are important bruh.
oh , I see where you are coming from.
Your Spec sheet specifies
Total toe 6mm , thats 3 mm per side .
I always talk single wheel , as this is how you setup a race car.

I think 3mm is still a truckload of toe and
this has certainly some reason in excessive flex in suspension components causing the tyres wear more nicely with this much Static toe ....

back to RB16b :wink:

marcush
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Re: Red Bull RB16B

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nzjrs wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:16 am
re Toe:

This Setup sheet reflects my reasoning
with a toe in setting of 2mm total on the rear suspension.
I'm surprised they only state total , as it is very important to have symmetrical toe at the,rear because any deviation here causes,the car,to crab (and,your steering wheel is off centre when driving straight)

but again , even with a total of 6mm toe in ,thats 3mm each wheel , that's just roughly 1.5mm of displacement of the rim or tyre sidewall at the leading edge in hub height....I don't think this is a really significant value for aero surfaces
in this area , with flexing tyre sidwall, bumb and rebound , various yaw angles and changing speed..temps ,densities ,
humidity...
not everything in F1 is aero.

Sevach
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Re: Red Bull RB16B

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godlameroso
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Re: Red Bull RB16B

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marcush wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:03 am
nzjrs wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:16 am
re Toe:

This Setup sheet reflects my reasoning
with a toe in setting of 2mm total on the rear suspension.
I'm surprised they only state total , as it is very important to have symmetrical toe at the,rear because any deviation here causes,the car,to crab (and,your steering wheel is off centre when driving straight)

but again , even with a total of 6mm toe in ,thats 3mm each wheel , that's just roughly 1.5mm of displacement of the rim or tyre sidewall at the leading edge in hub height....I don't think this is a really significant value for aero surfaces
in this area , with flexing tyre sidwall, bumb and rebound , various yaw angles and changing speed..temps ,densities ,
humidity...
not everything in F1 is aero.
Total is ~11mm toe on my car, 5.5mm on each side. I do my own alignments and have done so for the last 7 years. I'll show you the alignment sheet if you want. Later models needed less toe in because the rear upper wishbone geometry was altered and a thicker bushing with less deformation was used, along with a different rear tire. Going from a 235/45/16 to a 245/40/17. The Club Racer model bumped up the static toe in close to AP1 levels because of the rear wing, and stickier tires increased the deformation of the rear upper wishbone bushings.

Of course F1 uses rose joint bushings, there is little if any upper wishbone deformation. The tires are much wider than they were in 2013, a 405 tire vs a 325 tire is going to deform differently.
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Hoffman900
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Re: Red Bull RB16B

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I’m not sure what you can deduce from the alignment of a street car, to a formula car with huge tires, torsion bar suspension, and A LOT of downforce.

Even in club racing, alignment changes from track to track, especially if you want to be competitive. Never leave the shop / home garage without your scales, turn plates, and everything you need to change it.

dans79
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169 100 98 7

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MtthsMlw
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Crazy how much room there is under the gearbox
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Morteza
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