Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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Mclarensenna
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merc ... l/5941677/

According to this article the Mercedes engine has a derating issue.
Do any of the experts here know how long it will take to fix an issue like this and how much performance it is costing Mercedes right now?

zibby43
zibby43
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Mclarensenna wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:05 am
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merc ... l/5941677/

According to this article the Mercedes engine has a derating issue.
Do any of the experts here know how long it will take to fix an issue like this and how much performance it is costing Mercedes right now?
I'm guessing they can work on this with further refinement and optimization of the PU, whether that be on the harvesting side or the deployment side, as they clearly ran into clipping issues at the end of the straights in Bahrain.

Tough to put an exact figure on it without the data the team has access to, but it is unequivocally costing them time on the straights. The team has said that they first noticed the issue in testing and that they improved it somewhat for the first race, so clearly the troubleshooting is ongoing.

With the teams being forced to cram a year's worth of updates into that first PU, it's not unusual that further optimization is required, as opposed to being some kind of fundamental flaw.

zibby43
zibby43
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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As a follow-up, it looks like it's a deployment issue for Mercedes at the moment. While improved since Bahrain, it's still not 100%.

George Russell after quali: "It’s no secret that Mercedes are struggling a bit with the battery deployment, and every single metre gives you a metre at the end of a lap."

Wonder what has changed from the '20 spec to '21, as last year's deployment was regarded as excellent. :?:

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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Mercedes did too. That PU looks to be the class of the field in the race. Evident in the customer teams, too.

But the deployment is funky during qualifying for some reason. And that’s what I’m asking about in here, Merc’s ERS.

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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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zibby43 wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:42 am
zibby43 wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:46 am
As a follow-up, it looks like it's a deployment issue for Mercedes at the moment. While improved since Bahrain, it's still not 100%.

George Russell after quali: "It’s no secret that Mercedes are struggling a bit with the battery deployment, and every single metre gives you a metre at the end of a lap."

Wonder what has changed from the '20 spec to '21, as last year's deployment was regarded as excellent. :?:



Mercedes did too. That PU looks to be the class of the field in the race. Evident in the customer teams, too.

But the deployment is funky during qualifying for some reason. And that’s what I’m asking about in here, Merc’s ERS.
They don't have an "issue" per se. But Wolff noted that's where they were losing out to Honda in 2021, so they now regard it as an area they need to work on and "will not be happy with the ERS until they figure out how to improve it".

Both manufacturers have improved, one drastically so, and I'd challenge the notion the Mercedes PU is number 1 at the moment. RBR and AT's jump is significant and I think we are seeing a passing of the torch.

If Honda made no progress, Mercedes would not see their deployment potential as weak.

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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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GhostF1 wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:52 am
zibby43 wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:42 am


Mercedes did too. That PU looks to be the class of the field in the race. Evident in the customer teams, too.

But the deployment is funky during qualifying for some reason. And that’s what I’m asking about in here, Merc’s ERS.
They don't have an "issue" per se. But Wolff noted that's where they were losing out to Honda in 2021, so they now regard it as an area they need to work on and "will not be happy with the ERS until they figure out how to improve it".

Both manufacturers have improved, one drastically so, and I'd challenge the notion the Mercedes PU is number 1 at the moment. RBR and AT's jump is significant and I think we are seeing a passing of the torch.

If Honda made no progress, Mercedes would not see their deployment potential as weak.
They have a derating/deployment issue in qualifying trim. Russell referenced in the quote I included above. The deployment mode used during the race is strong.

Wolff: "We're losing a little bit on the engine side in terms of derate. We are not yet in a happy place with our energy recovery, but it's not one thing we point to where we can say this is the big gap.”

"There's just no one-off solution then to recover. And I believe that on the derates that you see, it is something that we have to get on top of. That is not easy, but we'll get there.”

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GhostF1
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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zibby43 wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:52 am
GhostF1 wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:52 am
zibby43 wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:42 am


Mercedes did too. That PU looks to be the class of the field in the race. Evident in the customer teams, too.

But the deployment is funky during qualifying for some reason. And that’s what I’m asking about in here, Merc’s ERS.
They don't have an "issue" per se. But Wolff noted that's where they were losing out to Honda in 2021, so they now regard it as an area they need to work on and "will not be happy with the ERS until they figure out how to improve it".

Both manufacturers have improved, one drastically so, and I'd challenge the notion the Mercedes PU is number 1 at the moment. RBR and AT's jump is significant and I think we are seeing a passing of the torch.

If Honda made no progress, Mercedes would not see their deployment potential as weak.
They have a derating/deployment issue in qualifying trim. Russell referenced in the quote I included above. The deployment mode used during the race is strong.

Wolff: "We're losing a little bit on the engine side in terms of derate. We are not yet in a happy place with our energy recovery, but it's not one thing we point to where we can say this is the big gap.”

"There's just no one-off solution then to recover. And I believe that on the derates that you see, it is something that we have to get on top of. That is not easy, but we'll get there.”
That doesn't explicitly imply they have an "issue" either. He mentions they are losing a little on the engine side in relation to Honda. The next sentence is also this:
"Wolff said: “Honda has done a great job, delivered a power unit that is extremely competitive look at where AlphaTauri is. And we just have to take it as sportsmen.

Taken in context, it would imply they have just been leapfrogged and now clip more than Honda and they need to be good sportsmen about it and just do better next time. The alternative would be to imply Honda made no progress and Mercedes have gone backwards. We know neither of those is true.

zibby43
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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GhostF1 wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:47 am
zibby43 wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:52 am
GhostF1 wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:52 am


They don't have an "issue" per se. But Wolff noted that's where they were losing out to Honda in 2021, so they now regard it as an area they need to work on and "will not be happy with the ERS until they figure out how to improve it".

Both manufacturers have improved, one drastically so, and I'd challenge the notion the Mercedes PU is number 1 at the moment. RBR and AT's jump is significant and I think we are seeing a passing of the torch.

If Honda made no progress, Mercedes would not see their deployment potential as weak.
They have a derating/deployment issue in qualifying trim. Russell referenced in the quote I included above. The deployment mode used during the race is strong.

Wolff: "We're losing a little bit on the engine side in terms of derate. We are not yet in a happy place with our energy recovery, but it's not one thing we point to where we can say this is the big gap.”

"There's just no one-off solution then to recover. And I believe that on the derates that you see, it is something that we have to get on top of. That is not easy, but we'll get there.”
That doesn't explicitly imply they have an "issue" either. He mentions they are losing a little on the engine side in relation to Honda. The next sentence is also this:
"Wolff said: “Honda has done a great job, delivered a power unit that is extremely competitive look at where AlphaTauri is. And we just have to take it as sportsmen.

Taken in context, it would imply they have just been leapfrogged and now clip more than Honda and they need to be good sportsmen about it and just do better next time. The alternative would be to imply Honda made no progress and Mercedes have gone backwards. We know neither of those is true.
Mercedes noticed the issue in Bahrain testing, and improved it for the first race, and then supposedly made further strides for Imola. So it's not something that's going to be left for "next time."

Everything can be evaluated in relation to the competition, but that doesn't mean there isn't an issue, and when you look at the preponderance of the evidence, including Russell's statement from this weekend (which you did not address, and was not issued in relation to anything Honda-related, and offered some of the most detailed context yet on what's happening), there's clearly an issue in qualifying.

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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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zibby43 wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:01 am
GhostF1 wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:47 am
zibby43 wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:52 am


They have a derating/deployment issue in qualifying trim. Russell referenced in the quote I included above. The deployment mode used during the race is strong.

Wolff: "We're losing a little bit on the engine side in terms of derate. We are not yet in a happy place with our energy recovery, but it's not one thing we point to where we can say this is the big gap.”

"There's just no one-off solution then to recover. And I believe that on the derates that you see, it is something that we have to get on top of. That is not easy, but we'll get there.”
That doesn't explicitly imply they have an "issue" either. He mentions they are losing a little on the engine side in relation to Honda. The next sentence is also this:
"Wolff said: “Honda has done a great job, delivered a power unit that is extremely competitive look at where AlphaTauri is. And we just have to take it as sportsmen.

Taken in context, it would imply they have just been leapfrogged and now clip more than Honda and they need to be good sportsmen about it and just do better next time. The alternative would be to imply Honda made no progress and Mercedes have gone backwards. We know neither of those is true.
Mercedes noticed the issue in Bahrain testing, and improved it for the first race, and then supposedly made further strides for Imola. So it's not something that's going to be left for "next time."

Everything can be evaluated in relation to the competition, but that doesn't mean there isn't an issue, and when you look at the preponderance of the evidence, including Russell's statement from this weekend (which you did not address, and was not issued in relation to anything Honda-related, and offered some of the most detailed context yet on what's happening), there's clearly an issue in qualifying.
This just sounds like Honda last year. They labelled the RA620H their "best yet", making large ICE efficiency gains however this affected their ERS in certain circumstances. They were losing out and clipping only in comparison to Mercedes and they referred to it as an ERS deficiency they needed to get on top of to compete with Merc, then spent the whole season doing everything they could on the software side to improve it.

So it's not exactly "an issue" but there is a deficit. It's the exact same scenario but reversed. In testing, Wolff said they were behind on the engine side, but didn't blame a power unit issue but only that they noticed when comparing the trace of the Red Bulls. It is possible the same thing has happened and their ICE bump has affected their ERS but Mercedes did mention they revised the turbo to mitigate the losses, besides, these aren't power unit "problems" though, that would be a decision they have obviously made and in isolation it performed great, the competition highlighted the difference.

And if this is the case, they'll find some ways to improve it on the software side, but you'd be foolish to think they won't be revising the turbo/MGU-H for the 2022 unit to improve the ERS harvesting.

I think what we are seeing here is some would rather believe there's an inherent power unit problem and they'll find 4 tenths on the engine in a few races from software fettling and some believe they've just been overtaken and Mercedes now know they need to find gains to take the spot back. Hence the "We need to take it as sportsmen" comment. I mean.. it would be a very weird comment to make if they are having temporary gremlins. Regardless, we'll see how the season goes and that will tell the tale.

zibby43
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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GhostF1 wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:57 am
Regardless, we'll see how the season goes and that will tell the tale.
Usually the best course of action. Last year I remember some here were speculating that Merc were doing something unscrupulous on the ERS side of the equation and that their PU advantage would be neutralized at Monza.

The season told the tale.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Nah. The Mercedes ICE is still the most powerful.

The derating is a Mercedes thing compared to all other engines. George doesnt race against RedBulls or Alfa Tauris so he has no comment to make relating to Honda.

The problem is the programming with the more powerful ICE and new turbocharger i suspect.

3 days of running in Bahrain wasn't enough for them to dial it in is my guess.

They are still mashing up the place when you look at what Williams Aston and Mclaren are doing with it. The Mercedes is a high drag car.. Not as efficient as RedBull so yeah things will show.
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zibby43
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:38 pm
Nah. The Mercedes ICE is still the most powerful.

The derating is a Mercedes thing compared to all other engines. George doesnt race against RedBulls or Alfa Tauris so he has no comment to make relating to Honda.

The problem is the programming with the more powerful ICE and new turbocharger i suspect.

3 days of running in Bahrain wasn't enough for them to dial it in is my guess.
Good stuff. Thanks for sharing. Agree re: the context of Russell's comment, as well.

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dren
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:38 pm
The problem is the programming with the more powerful ICE and new turbocharger i suspect.

3 days of running in Bahrain wasn't enough for them to dial it in is my guess.
They have dynos, don't they?
Honda!

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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dren wrote:
Mon Jun 07, 2021 3:58 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:38 pm
The problem is the programming with the more powerful ICE and new turbocharger i suspect.

3 days of running in Bahrain wasn't enough for them to dial it in is my guess.
They have dynos, don't they?
Not accurate enough because, dynos use past data and sim data. At each event they calibrate the power unit if we go by reports. The track data is sent to base ( driver feedback, MAP, load rpm, regen etc) and that is run in the loop for them to tune. And that then is sent back to try at the track. It was publicized a lot by Honda in McLaren days when they had slim margins to work around for the ICE and the hybrid tuning for each track was crucial.
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lio007
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Nice pics from the Mercedes PU in Baku:
Image
Image

From earlier in the year (April):
Image
Image


via @NicolasF1i