2021 Emilia Romagna Grand Prix - Imola, Apr 16 - 18

[El Scorchio]

I still can’t work out why they didn’t instruct him to just give the places back at the time. By waiting so long and then only giving a 10 second penalty, he only lost one of those two places. Very weirdly handled. Also it sets a precedent now- just overtake whoever you like under a safety car and you’ll only get a ten second penalty at your next pit stop. Well worth it for making up a bunch of places.

Also, the timing of Vettel’s penalty was pure spite.

I don’t think the stewards are going to give you a 10s penalty when you consciously passing cars under a SC. Same goes for any action that is inspired by gaining and taking a penalty n purpose. Then unsportsmanlike behaviour comes into play and there are stronger penalties for that. One of the reasons Verstappen had to give his place back at the first GP from his team.

Most likely not, (and I was being a bit facetious) but surely Perez knows the rules so was aware what he was doing was wrong and certainly his pit wall would have, and I'm just really surprised they (race control) didn't immediately tell him to surrender back the lost places. The upshot was he had a net gain from breaking the rules by the time they'd stopped mucking around and finally administered a penalty.

[atanatizante]

Could someone enlight me regarding:

1.When the cars are fuelled after the parc ferme is opened?
2.After they realise it`ll be a wet race could they pull some fuel out from the cars?
3.Had they are not allowed to do so there is a PU mode to run rich in order to burn more fuel and not acting like ballast?

[Tizz]

You all disappoint me. I have not seen any conspiracy that Toto Wolf instructed Russell to crash and cause a red flag that would ultimately give Hammi the opportunity to unlap himself...

[Jolle]

You all disappoint me. I have not seen any conspiracy that Toto Wolf instructed Russell to crash and cause a red flag that would ultimately give Hammi the opportunity to unlap himself...

lol, there were cheaper ways to do such a thing (a simple SC to recover a spun Bottas from a gravel trap would have had the same effect)

[jjn9128]

Most likely not, (and I was being a bit facetious) but surely Perez knows the rules so was aware what he was doing was wrong and certainly his pit wall would have, and I'm just really surprised they (race control) didn't immediately tell him to surrender back the lost places. The upshot was he had a net gain from breaking the rules by the time they'd stopped mucking around and finally administered a penalty.

IMO it is the driver's responsibility to know the rules once they leave the pits. Don't expect them to know the technical regs but the "rules of the road" as it were should be entirely up to them. See passing under safety car, or doing practice starts on track, or not seeing pit closed/marshal light markers.

Race control don't seem to pay attention to anything other than the lead battle. Immediately told Verstappen to surrender 1st in Bahrain but Stroll penalty came like 3hrs after the obviously illegal move.

[timorous]

But would he have been allowed to overtake the moment Max lost control or only when he went off track? Because the time he spent off track was 10 frames at 50fps ... so 0.2s ... hardly enough time to pass anyone

I think Charles would have been allowed from the moment Max lost control. Had Charles reacted to that moment he would have gone past around the time Max was pointing the wrong way and saving his spin and I don't think the stewards could have issue with that since Max pointing the wrong way mostly on the grass is definitely an 'obvious problem'.

This opens a huge can of worms though because of Kimi's penalty. 42.6 says that if you get delayed you have until SC line 1 to get back to the correct position. Since Charles would have restarted the race at that moment and SC line 1 is just after the final corner that would have been impossible for Max. Further even if it was somehow possible there is the possibility that 42.12 would come into play since that governs rolling restarts and there it states that you cannot overtake on track from the time the safety car lights go out (Turn 10 in this case) and the start line.

That puts Max and the stewards in real sticky situation. Arguably if Max could not get back to P1 he should have a 30s penalty like Kimi for violating 42.6. If he gets back to P1 in time he could be hit with a penalty for 42.12 but that might be less severe.

The big question is what would happen if the stewards found the Charles should have held back, he obviously gets a penalty but does Max still get hit with the 42.6 violation. The wording of the Kimi decision seems to suggest the stewards would have no choice in the matter.

Total can of worms and the FIA are very fortunate that Charles did not have the killer instinct in that moment because the aftermath would have been brutal.

[_cerber1]

[El Scorchio]

Most likely not, (and I was being a bit facetious) but surely Perez knows the rules so was aware what he was doing was wrong and certainly his pit wall would have, and I'm just really surprised they (race control) didn't immediately tell him to surrender back the lost places. The upshot was he had a net gain from breaking the rules by the time they'd stopped mucking around and finally administered a penalty.

IMO it is the driver's responsibility to know the rules once they leave the pits. Don't expect them to know the technical regs but the "rules of the road" as it were should be entirely up to them. See passing under safety car, or doing practice starts on track, or not seeing pit closed/marshal light markers.

Race control don't seem to pay attention to anything other than the lead battle. Immediately told Verstappen to surrender 1st in Bahrain but Stroll penalty came like 3hrs after the obviously illegal move.

Agree, and it's quite the issue, I think. Looking at incidents 'after the session' (and picking and choosing which these are) really doesn't seem right at all and it's happened a lot. The circumstance of a race or qualifying could end up making any penalty other than exclusion from it utterly pointless. In qualifying a retrospective penalty is of no use to drivers and teams who may have missed out advancing from a session instead of the penalised driver, and in a race clearly a penalised driver could end up far higher up the field that a retrospective 10 second penalty or whatever is completely pointless and ineffectual.

The Verstappen one in Bahrain was a slam dunk and obvious to react quickly to. The Stroll one (in Imola?) should have been the same. As should Perez. As always it's lack of consistency. Not that it's an excuse, but did they just not see the Stroll one at the time or was it 'noted'?

[RZS10]

But would he have been allowed to overtake the moment Max lost control or only when he went off track? Because the time he spent off track was 10 frames at 50fps ... so 0.2s ... hardly enough time to pass anyone

I think Charles would have been allowed from the moment Max lost control. Had Charles reacted to that moment he would have gone past around the time Max was pointing the wrong way and saving his spin and I don't think the stewards could have issue with that since Max pointing the wrong way mostly on the grass is definitely an 'obvious problem'.

Yea it probably would have been a proper mess to sort it out, especially since they'd have to determine whether he really had an 'obvious problem' as he was still roughly pointing in the right direction the entire time, at least more right than wrong and he arguably never fully lost control ... who knows

Because the time he spent off track was 10 frames at 50fps ... so 0.2s ... hardly enough time to pass anyone

Fair enough if 0.2 was all he had. That's a lot lower than the average healthy reaction time.

he just skids over the curb and his right rear tyre stays on the white line the entire time until he turns it around - so going with the "contact with the white line" definition of being on track it was from here

to here

where he was off, that's 10 frames in that video which is 1080p50(fps)

He didn't go for a fast lap.

Sure looks like it thought. Two attempts. Unless there was traffic, was there traffic?

[bosyber]

https://f1bythenumbers.com/wp-content/u ... top_10.svg
https://f1bythenumbers.com/wp-content/u ... tom_10.svg

That's an interesting graph, but the fact that BOT,RUS are the slowest two really makes me wonder whether it is mostly up to them having never had free air, because they were always in the pack. Or quite possibly due to being out of it two thirds of the way, with dry running afterwards (and Latifi probably doesn't just because he was out immediately). Either way, seems that drivers should be weighted/compared differently, or those that did less laps in different circumstances should be taken out of the comparison.

[timorous]

But would he have been allowed to overtake the moment Max lost control or only when he went off track? Because the time he spent off track was 10 frames at 50fps ... so 0.2s ... hardly enough time to pass anyone

I think Charles would have been allowed from the moment Max lost control. Had Charles reacted to that moment he would have gone past around the time Max was pointing the wrong way and saving his spin and I don't think the stewards could have issue with that since Max pointing the wrong way mostly on the grass is definitely an 'obvious problem'.

Yea it probably would have been a proper mess to sort it out, especially since they'd have to determine whether he really had an 'obvious problem' as he was still roughly pointing in the right direction the entire time, at least more right than wrong and he arguably never fully lost control ... who knows

Because the time he spent off track was 10 frames at 50fps ... so 0.2s ... hardly enough time to pass anyone

Fair enough if 0.2 was all he had. That's a lot lower than the average healthy reaction time.

he just skids over the curb and his right rear tyre stays on the white line the entire time until he turns it around - so going with the "contact with the white line" definition of being on track it was from here
https://i.imgur.com/CoRZ2yi.png
to here
https://i.imgur.com/PNf5l0A.png
where he was off, that's 10 frames in that video which is 1080p50(fps)

Perez was pointing in more the right way than the wrong and didn't fully lose control of his car during the early safety car but the stewards did not care that two cars went by when they could have safely slowed to let him back infront.

While Max only had all 4 wheels off track for 0.2s or there abouts it was about 4 seconds from the moment he lost the rear to when he had all 4 wheels back on track and the car fully under control. Considering they were originally doing around 80 KPH into a 100+ KPH corner Charles had plenty of leeway to restart the race at that moment.

That then also adds in an element of if Max sees that what happens? Does his reaction to that actually fully induce a spin which would entirely clear Charles of any potential wrong doing or does he stay calm? So many unknowns in how it could have played out.

[214270]

https://f1bythenumbers.com/wp-content/u ... top_10.svg
https://f1bythenumbers.com/wp-content/u ... tom_10.svg

Never seen this graphic before

[El Scorchio]

FWIW I think the Leclerc Verstappen thing is a bit of a moot point. I think even if he'd lost a place or two from his little mistake, it's highly likely he'd have got them back without too much trouble and still won the race. Just by a smaller margin than he did.

[PlatinumZealot]

But would he have been allowed to overtake the moment Max lost control or only when he went off track? Because the time he spent off track was 10 frames at 50fps ... so 0.2s ... hardly enough time to pass anyone

I think Charles would have been allowed from the moment Max lost control. Had Charles reacted to that moment he would have gone past around the time Max was pointing the wrong way and saving his spin and I don't think the stewards could have issue with that since Max pointing the wrong way mostly on the grass is definitely an 'obvious problem'.

Yea it probably would have been a proper mess to sort it out, especially since they'd have to determine whether he really had an 'obvious problem' as he was still roughly pointing in the right direction the entire time, at least more right than wrong and he arguably never fully lost control ... who knows

Because the time he spent off track was 10 frames at 50fps ... so 0.2s ... hardly enough time to pass anyone

Fair enough if 0.2 was all he had. That's a lot lower than the average healthy reaction time.

he just skids over the curb and his right rear tyre stays on the white line the entire time until he turns it around - so going with the "contact with the white line" definition of being on track it was from here
https://i.imgur.com/CoRZ2yi.png
to here
https://i.imgur.com/PNf5l0A.png
where he was off, that's 10 frames in that video which is 1080p50(fps)

He didn't go for a fast lap.

https://i.imgur.com/b42LdVE.png

Sure looks like it thought. Two attempts. Unless there was traffic, was there traffic?

So Max went off track that means charles had a real legitimate chance of taking the pass.

[DChemTech]

https://f1bythenumbers.com/wp-content/u ... top_10.svg
https://f1bythenumbers.com/wp-content/u ... tom_10.svg

That's an interesting graph, but the fact that BOT,RUS are the slowest two really makes me wonder whether it is mostly up to them having never had free air, because they were always in the pack. Or quite possibly due to being out of it two thirds of the way, with dry running afterwards (and Latifi probably doesn't just because he was out immediately). Either way, seems that drivers should be weighted/compared differently, or those that did less laps in different circumstances should be taken out of the comparison.

It's because they crashed early, so for them only laps in wet conditions with high fuel loads were recorded, while for others, the later, faster laps bring down their average. It's not a fair comparison in that sense; it's better to look only at the upper range/individual laps on top to see how they compared - since all drivers will have posted their slow laps in the first section of the race. Those laps center around a 1.30, which is comparable to, say, (edit, again) Perez to Kimi even - quite a broad group clocking around the same times up there.