2021 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 07 - 09

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Unc1eM0nty
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Re: 2021 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 07 - 09

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 7:58 pm
Wouter wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 7:57 pm
cheeRS wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 6:54 pm
Verstappen made another mistake, albeit a small one. But you don’t win a WDC by making mistakes over and over.

He came in too early, without being called it. This delayed his pits too by around 2 seconds.
Teamradio:

Max : We will discuss after the race what went wrong
Gianpiero Lambiase (race-engineer): Yes I know what happend
Max: Yes it is ok

Max fault? It seems it wasn't his fault.
I'm unsure what Max might have done wrong during the race. He appeared to be doing all he could to win.
In a post race interview with Sky Horner said the same thing, they were not expecting Max for that first pit stop, that's why it was so slow. This had no affect on the result though.

i70q7m7ghw
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Re: 2021 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 07 - 09

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Poor team effort from Bottas, he won't be here to race next year if he keeps doing that.

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McMika98
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Re: 2021 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 07 - 09

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TNTHead wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 8:40 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 8:32 pm

Max needs to push back at Lewis off track to get into head because if you dont find something to unsettle Lewis off track he is invincible.
Good point. If Max stays absent in the mind games (which may be not his talent) he'll have a hard time to force Lewis into errors. You need to show them that whatever they try they'll not get is. At the moment Mercedes has that. It's more than just maximum pace.
Only problem, Lewis is ahead even before the corner starts so unless Max drives into the back of him and ruin both races, its a stupid idea.
Hamilton is really proving his status as the best and is growing on me again. He might psychologically destroy Max by the end of the year. Max has equally fast car using Bottas as a reference, Hamilton is wing out the performance in the right time.

zibby43
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Re: 2021 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 07 - 09

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DChemTech wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 7:12 pm
Some still seem to claim RB and Merc are more or less equal. If that were the case, either Perez is an absolute fool, or Bottas is doing a stellar job. Now, while I did expect more of Perez, I don't think he's that bad... and the general attitude towards Bottas does not seem to be one of stellar driving. In Bahrain, the cars were even or perhaps RB had a slight overhand. But since, the race-pace seems to be in favor of Mercedes. Had Hamilton not beached in Imola, he'd possibly have 4/4 races so far. Had Bottas not had the fuel sensor issue last week, he might have caught Verstappen. And this week, the pace was favoring Hamilton, too. Once he was past Max, it was a done deal. Sure, Max might have made it a bit harder if he had not had the miscommunication with the pitlane - but even with a perfect stop, it would not be enough (nor would pitting a few laps later help, as Hamilton would have taken an undercut, then).

As for the individual performance of Max vs. Lewis, I don't think there is really that clear a conclusion (as some do seem to imply). Both are driving brilliantly. Max takes a bit more risk (possibly to compensate for the seemingly somewhat lesser car), and conversely, makes a bit more errors due to that (which seems to be a side effect of taking more risk). Together they are making quite the show, and that's great. But I do hope RB find a bit more race pace in the car - otherwise every individual race might have its tense moments, but the championship may not.
I think the cars are very evenly matched on single-lap pace.

And even though Bahrain is a longer lap, RB had a pretty substantial 4 tenths advantage there over a single lap.

I think Mercedes’ rear instability issue can be (and has been, post-Bahrain) masked somewhat with a less-than-ideal setup in qualifying. In the race, the heavier car makes that issue disappear altogether, and the car can tap into its true potential.

Merc has still yet to bring its first major update of the year, and there’s no question it’ll be aimed at mitigating that rear instability and/or increasing efficiency elsewhere to balance out the added inefficient rear downforce they’ve had to add as a bandaid in the interim.

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Re: 2021 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 07 - 09

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McMika98 wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 8:55 pm
TNTHead wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 8:40 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 8:32 pm

Max needs to push back at Lewis off track to get into head because if you dont find something to unsettle Lewis off track he is invincible.
Good point. If Max stays absent in the mind games (which may be not his talent) he'll have a hard time to force Lewis into errors. You need to show them that whatever they try they'll not get is. At the moment Mercedes has that. It's more than just maximum pace.
Only problem, Lewis is ahead even before the corner starts so unless Max drives into the back of him and ruin both races, its a stupid idea.
Hamilton is really proving his status as the best and is growing on me again. He might psychologically destroy Max by the end of the year. Max has equally fast car using Bottas as a reference, Hamilton is wing out the performance in the right time.
That's an interesting take on things. Implicitly, you are saying Max and Bottas are more or less equally ranked drivers (because the inherent pace of the car apparently follows from them having comparable performance). That has some interesting logical consequences - namely that Bottas is quite a good driver, and Perez absolutely terrible.

Now I don't think Perez is doing great so far - but I don't think he is that bad. And I don't think Bottas is as bad as many make him out to be, but he isn't as good as Verstappen either. To me the nearly comparable paces of Verstappen and Bottas (slightly better pace of Verstappen this weekend, slightly better of Bottas last weekend, aside from the fuel sensor issue) signify that the Mercedes simply is the better car in race-pace, and that both Max and Lewis are doing very well this year, so far. Be happy with that - at least it gives some excitement, instead of Merc running off into the sunset time and time again.

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Re: 2021 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 07 - 09

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zibby43 wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 9:10 pm
DChemTech wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 7:12 pm
Some still seem to claim RB and Merc are more or less equal. If that were the case, either Perez is an absolute fool, or Bottas is doing a stellar job. Now, while I did expect more of Perez, I don't think he's that bad... and the general attitude towards Bottas does not seem to be one of stellar driving. In Bahrain, the cars were even or perhaps RB had a slight overhand. But since, the race-pace seems to be in favor of Mercedes. Had Hamilton not beached in Imola, he'd possibly have 4/4 races so far. Had Bottas not had the fuel sensor issue last week, he might have caught Verstappen. And this week, the pace was favoring Hamilton, too. Once he was past Max, it was a done deal. Sure, Max might have made it a bit harder if he had not had the miscommunication with the pitlane - but even with a perfect stop, it would not be enough (nor would pitting a few laps later help, as Hamilton would have taken an undercut, then).

As for the individual performance of Max vs. Lewis, I don't think there is really that clear a conclusion (as some do seem to imply). Both are driving brilliantly. Max takes a bit more risk (possibly to compensate for the seemingly somewhat lesser car), and conversely, makes a bit more errors due to that (which seems to be a side effect of taking more risk). Together they are making quite the show, and that's great. But I do hope RB find a bit more race pace in the car - otherwise every individual race might have its tense moments, but the championship may not.
I think the cars are very evenly matched on single-lap pace.

And even though Bahrain is a longer lap, RB had a pretty substantial 4 tenths advantage there over a single lap.

I think Mercedes’ rear instability issue can be (and has been, post-Bahrain) masked somewhat with a less-than-ideal setup in qualifying. In the race, the heavier car makes that issue disappear altogether, and the car can tap into its true potential.

Merc has still yet to bring its first major update of the year, and there’s no question it’ll be aimed at mitigating that rear instability and/or increasing efficiency elsewhere to balance out the added inefficient rear downforce they’ve had to add as a bandaid in the interim.
One lap, sure. That's why I explicitly mentioned race-pace.

zibby43
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Re: 2021 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 07 - 09

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DChemTech wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 9:15 pm
zibby43 wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 9:10 pm
DChemTech wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 7:12 pm
Some still seem to claim RB and Merc are more or less equal. If that were the case, either Perez is an absolute fool, or Bottas is doing a stellar job. Now, while I did expect more of Perez, I don't think he's that bad... and the general attitude towards Bottas does not seem to be one of stellar driving. In Bahrain, the cars were even or perhaps RB had a slight overhand. But since, the race-pace seems to be in favor of Mercedes. Had Hamilton not beached in Imola, he'd possibly have 4/4 races so far. Had Bottas not had the fuel sensor issue last week, he might have caught Verstappen. And this week, the pace was favoring Hamilton, too. Once he was past Max, it was a done deal. Sure, Max might have made it a bit harder if he had not had the miscommunication with the pitlane - but even with a perfect stop, it would not be enough (nor would pitting a few laps later help, as Hamilton would have taken an undercut, then).

As for the individual performance of Max vs. Lewis, I don't think there is really that clear a conclusion (as some do seem to imply). Both are driving brilliantly. Max takes a bit more risk (possibly to compensate for the seemingly somewhat lesser car), and conversely, makes a bit more errors due to that (which seems to be a side effect of taking more risk). Together they are making quite the show, and that's great. But I do hope RB find a bit more race pace in the car - otherwise every individual race might have its tense moments, but the championship may not.
I think the cars are very evenly matched on single-lap pace.

And even though Bahrain is a longer lap, RB had a pretty substantial 4 tenths advantage there over a single lap.

I think Mercedes’ rear instability issue can be (and has been, post-Bahrain) masked somewhat with a less-than-ideal setup in qualifying. In the race, the heavier car makes that issue disappear altogether, and the car can tap into its true potential.

Merc has still yet to bring its first major update of the year, and there’s no question it’ll be aimed at mitigating that rear instability and/or increasing efficiency elsewhere to balance out the added inefficient rear downforce they’ve had to add as a bandaid in the interim.
One lap, sure. That's why I explicitly mentioned race-pace.
I didn’t see you make that distinction in your first line.

Only saw you say you hoped RB would find more race pace.

Not to mention the Perez/Bottas line seemed to be about qualifying yesterday.

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Re: 2021 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 07 - 09

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cheeRS wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 6:54 pm
Verstappen made another mistake, albeit a small one. But you don’t win a WDC by making mistakes over and over.

He came in too early, without being called it. This delayed his pits too by around 2 seconds.

And the idea that they could stay out and not cover off Merc’s undercut was just utterly naive - although that was the team’s fault and not Max’s directly.
Far from it being a mistake. An exact opposite actually, Verstappen saved his race for the time being with that move. He pre-empted perfectly Hamilton was going to overtake him unless he pits, which is exactly what was about to happen. Verstappen got held up by dirty air from mazepin and that put him into clutches of hamilton behind. Coming out of final corner Hamilton was only 0.520s behind Max and this would have meant an easy DRS fly-by. By diving into the pits he gave himself a chance to stay ahead. Obviously this meant red bull wasn't ready for him and a slow pitstop, and this should have been enough for hamilton to overcut him, but RB got lucky with mazepin holding up hamilton for an entire lap, thus negating Verstappen's slow pitstop.

If there was an error it was on red bull's strategy side, not for them not covering hamilton's second stop, but by leaving Verstappen out on softs for so long when it was clear his tyres were finished.

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Re: 2021 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 07 - 09

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 8:32 pm
Hoffman900 wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 6:38 pm
mafeotul wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 6:35 pm
Think we’re definitely getting off track here.

To get it back to business, why oh why did RedBull not respond after the stop from Hamilton. They might have had a better chance that way. I am sure they had a window, even if minute. How are they expecting to win titles against serial winners if they don’t go for a bit of risk and madness sometimes.
Max said in the post race, they just didn’t have the pace, so it would have been easier to defend from the front on a track like that.

Basically he said he knew he was going to be 2nd one way or another as soon as Lewis ducked in.

Max is a but too much of a cyborg for me to be a diehard fan, but he interviews great. Very candid, doesn’t get into the political game or give the media sound bites / play into their games.
Agreed but i wish he weren't so well behaved.
He has balls but seems he has gotten buttered up into a bromance by wiley old Lewis. Too nice and accepting of realities these days, Max! What happened to good old rival hatred?!

Used to be a time when rivals hate each others' guts. Remember Sebastian, Nico and Fernando with their shenanigans? This championship fight just doesnt have the same spice to it. It is sort of boring when they bump fists after the race. :|

That said, Max needs to push back at Lewis off track to get into head because if you don't find something to unsettle Lewis mentaly he is invincible.
I think there’s almost too much mutual respect between them. It’s almost like they are killing each other with kindness. They are making sure to be very courteous with each other on the track so far. All it’ll take is one incident though, where one of them comes off badly.

However, I think real fireworks at the sharp end will only happen again when Hamilton has retired. Verstappen vs Leclerc will be really spicy when they are both in top quality machinery.

zibby43
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Re: 2021 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 07 - 09

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El Scorchio wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 9:31 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 8:32 pm
Hoffman900 wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 6:38 pm


Max said in the post race, they just didn’t have the pace, so it would have been easier to defend from the front on a track like that.

Basically he said he knew he was going to be 2nd one way or another as soon as Lewis ducked in.

Max is a but too much of a cyborg for me to be a diehard fan, but he interviews great. Very candid, doesn’t get into the political game or give the media sound bites / play into their games.
Agreed but i wish he weren't so well behaved.
He has balls but seems he has gotten buttered up into a bromance by wiley old Lewis. Too nice and accepting of realities these days, Max! What happened to good old rival hatred?!

Used to be a time when rivals hate each others' guts. Remember Sebastian, Nico and Fernando with their shenanigans? This championship fight just doesnt have the same spice to it. It is sort of boring when they bump fists after the race. :|

That said, Max needs to push back at Lewis off track to get into head because if you don't find something to unsettle Lewis mentaly he is invincible.
I think there’s almost too much mutual respect between them. It’s almost like they are killing each other with kindness. They are making sure to be very courteous with each other on the track so far. All it’ll take is one incident though, where one of them comes off badly.

However, I think real fireworks at the sharp end will only happen again when Hamilton has retired. Verstappen vs Leclerc will be really spicy when they are both in top quality machinery.
There’s definitely respect, like you said. But, I think some of it is also Lewis’ general strategy.

For example, in today’s presser, Lewis said he could’ve chopped across Max earlier heading into T1, but he said “it’s a marathon, not a sprint” and that he has gotten to where he is in his career by not taking unnecessary risks early in races/the season.

Hoffman900
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Re: 2021 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 07 - 09

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I think Max is at the point in his career where he's trying to focus on being a champion, and fast over the season, vs. being fast as blazes and reckless. Some of it is maturity, some of it is watching Lewis and trying to emulate him (Lewis is dialed in with this, as he should at this point in his career. Senna's term "complete racing driver" comes to mind), and some of it might be media pressure.

It's a balancing act, and Max will get there, he just doesn't have that last percent or two that Lewis has, in terms of managing this. Peter Windor's take on how Lewis handles the car vs. Max in today's race was interesting.

That said, if it weren't for Lewis (and same goes for Max), these would be very boring races. They are both far and above clear of anyone else.

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Re: 2021 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 07 - 09

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Good race, lots of midfield action and overtakes. Wonder how the total on track overtakes compares this year.

Midi
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Re: 2021 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 07 - 09

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zibby43 wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 9:38 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 9:31 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 8:32 pm


Agreed but i wish he weren't so well behaved.
He has balls but seems he has gotten buttered up into a bromance by wiley old Lewis. Too nice and accepting of realities these days, Max! What happened to good old rival hatred?!

Used to be a time when rivals hate each others' guts. Remember Sebastian, Nico and Fernando with their shenanigans? This championship fight just doesnt have the same spice to it. It is sort of boring when they bump fists after the race. :|

That said, Max needs to push back at Lewis off track to get into head because if you don't find something to unsettle Lewis mentaly he is invincible.
I think there’s almost too much mutual respect between them. It’s almost like they are killing each other with kindness. They are making sure to be very courteous with each other on the track so far. All it’ll take is one incident though, where one of them comes off badly.

However, I think real fireworks at the sharp end will only happen again when Hamilton has retired. Verstappen vs Leclerc will be really spicy when they are both in top quality machinery.
There’s definitely respect, like you said. But, I think some of it is also Lewis’ general strategy.

For example, in today’s presser, Lewis said he could’ve chopped across Max earlier heading into T1, but he said “it’s a marathon, not a sprint” and that he has gotten to where he is in his career by not taking unnecessary risks early in races/the season.
He is in the position to take that approach because he knows he has the fastest car on race pace. Basically the situation since 2014 with a few exceptions. If Max would not have passed Lewis at turn 1 this race would have been very dull indeed.

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Juzh
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Re: 2021 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 07 - 09

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zibby43 wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 9:38 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 9:31 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 8:32 pm


Agreed but i wish he weren't so well behaved.
He has balls but seems he has gotten buttered up into a bromance by wiley old Lewis. Too nice and accepting of realities these days, Max! What happened to good old rival hatred?!

Used to be a time when rivals hate each others' guts. Remember Sebastian, Nico and Fernando with their shenanigans? This championship fight just doesnt have the same spice to it. It is sort of boring when they bump fists after the race. :|

That said, Max needs to push back at Lewis off track to get into head because if you don't find something to unsettle Lewis mentaly he is invincible.
I think there’s almost too much mutual respect between them. It’s almost like they are killing each other with kindness. They are making sure to be very courteous with each other on the track so far. All it’ll take is one incident though, where one of them comes off badly.

However, I think real fireworks at the sharp end will only happen again when Hamilton has retired. Verstappen vs Leclerc will be really spicy when they are both in top quality machinery.
There’s definitely respect, like you said. But, I think some of it is also Lewis’ general strategy.

For example, in today’s presser, Lewis said he could’ve chopped across Max earlier heading into T1, but he said “it’s a marathon, not a sprint” and that he has gotten to where he is in his career by not taking unnecessary risks early in races/the season.
Hamilton knows he doesn't need to take risks. His car is faster and he will use that to his advantage. It's been the same for years now. Take second place here, take 3 wins there.. it's a numbers game that's rigged in your favour when you're in clearly the fastest car. Hamilton takes this to extreme by having the fastest car for the longest period ever. You can be relaxed when you let go of position because the car will carry you back to it's place pace wise. One other factor that makes this extra easy is mercedes PU making everyone else unable to overtake you in a normal race and making your job that much easier when situation is reversed. Honda can pound their chests all they want, in race trim they are still far behind and that's been made clear every race so far.

Verstappen, on the contrary to Hamilton, must use every chance he's got to put himself in contention, but it's inevitably a lost cause in the long term.

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Re: 2021 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 07 - 09

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Juzh wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 9:56 pm
zibby43 wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 9:38 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 9:31 pm


I think there’s almost too much mutual respect between them. It’s almost like they are killing each other with kindness. They are making sure to be very courteous with each other on the track so far. All it’ll take is one incident though, where one of them comes off badly.

However, I think real fireworks at the sharp end will only happen again when Hamilton has retired. Verstappen vs Leclerc will be really spicy when they are both in top quality machinery.
There’s definitely respect, like you said. But, I think some of it is also Lewis’ general strategy.

For example, in today’s presser, Lewis said he could’ve chopped across Max earlier heading into T1, but he said “it’s a marathon, not a sprint” and that he has gotten to where he is in his career by not taking unnecessary risks early in races/the season.
Hamilton knows he doesn't need to take risks. His car is faster and he will use that to his advantage. It's been the same for years now. Take second place here, take 3 wins there.. it's a numbers game that's rigged in your favour when you're in clearly the fastest car. Hamilton takes this to extreme by having the fastest car for the longest period ever. You can be relaxed when you let go of position because the car will carry you back to it's place pace wise. One other factor that makes this extra easy is mercedes PU making everyone else unable to overtake you in a normal race and making your job that much easier when situation is reversed. Honda can pound their chests all they want, in race trim they are still far behind and that's been made clear every race so far.

Verstappen, on the contrary to Hamilton, must use every chance he's got to put himself in contention, but it's inevitably a lost cause in the long term.
And he's doing a great job, but it's really hard to drive against a faster car.
Fast car open your options, make inferior strategies work, cancels some mistakes...