2021 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 07 - 09

[El Scorchio]

Well Perez messed his qualy up and only started 8th. Plus he's new to the team (most new drivers are being beat easily by their team mates at the moment) So there's no way Perez vs Bottas can be compared yet. We still haven't had a race where the top 2 team lock out the front 2 rows and get away 1-4 at the start. That will be interesting to see.

Also, anyone claiming Bottas is 'Mazepin level' is either an idiot or trolling and their words aren't worth the effort it takes to read them. Is he top tier? No. There are only three top tier drivers in the sport at the moment. He is comfortably in the top 7-8 drivers, along with Perez. If he wasn't, they wouldn't be employing him at Mercedes at a cost of 8 million dollars a year with titles at stake when they could get someone to drive it for half a million dollars.

Nobody claimed that. Somebody said Max is of Bottas level. To which it was replied, well, if you believe that then you must think Bottas is of mazepin level. So it was actually a sensible reply on a trolling effort before that. And that is now being abused to push the troll agenda.

Not my quote. But DChemTech clearly does state 'Well, Perez was about 40s behind Bottas - and remember, some claim Bottas is of "Mazepin level".' which indicates he's seen it claimed somewhere, so it's probably best to address that to him rather than me. But in the past people have absolutely stated on here Bottas is 'worse' than Giovanazzi and on Latifi's level which is equally absurd.

But essentially we are agreeing anyway. Bottas is by no means one of the worst drivers on the grid, and using him or Perez as a stick to try and beat either Hamilton or Verstappen with is just silly.

[DChemTech]

Not my quote. But DChemTech clearly does state 'Well, Perez was about 40s behind Bottas - and remember, some claim Bottas is of "Mazepin level".' which indicates he's seen it claimed somewhere, so it's probably best to address that to him rather than me. But in the past people have absolutely stated on here Bottas is 'worse' than Giovanazzi and on Latifi's level which is equally absurd.

But essentially we are agreeing anyway. Bottas is by no means one of the worst drivers on the grid, and using him or Perez as a stick to try and beat either Hamilton or Verstappen with is just silly.

I did, for this reason:

please stop using bottas as a reference. he is as sloppy as mazepin. he doesn't even show desire to fight on track and is content for a walk in the park. lewis repeated what he did in hungary 2019, which clearly suggest w12 is as fast as it's predecessors. no need to make it a point as if one driver is driving beyond what a car can do. same applies to red bull. both teams have below par second drivers. i always maintained that mercedes is the better car and winter testing was as misleading as it it can get due to mercedes not having found the sweet spot of set up. now thry and w12 shows it's every bit reincarnation of w11.

But even if I were using the "Bottas is as bad as Mazepin" (Which, to emphasize, is certainly not my opinion), the point stands: if (1) the RB and MB have equal pace and (2) Bottas and Verstappen have been reasonably close in the past 2 races then (3) the logical conclusion is that Bottas and Verstappen are performing equally, and since (4) most people don't rank Bottas highly, the logical conclusion is that (5) Verstappen is also not ranked highly.

I don't think Bottas and Verstappen are performing similarly - which then leads me to conclude that the RB, in race pace, is the lesser car. I don't think that's an earth-shattering conclusion, but to some, apparently the notion is unacceptable, and such a claim can only be made by people that "cannot accept that Max could possibly lose in an equal car"

(further clarification: I am not using car performance as an 'excuse' for Max; I am as annoyed by people that claim Max could not possibly lose in an equal car, as by people that claim RB and MB are currently equal and Lewis is god.)

[MKlaus]

Also, anyone claiming Bottas is 'Mazepin level' is either an idiot or trolling and their words aren't worth the effort it takes to read them. Is he top tier? No. There are only three top tier drivers in the sport at the moment. He is comfortably in the top 7-8 drivers, along with Perez. If he wasn't, they wouldn't be employing him at Mercedes at a cost of 8 million dollars a year with titles at stake when they could get someone to drive it for half a million dollars.

Nobody claimed that. Somebody said Max is of Bottas level. To which it was replied, well, if you believe that then you must think Bottas is of mazepin level. So it was actually a sensible reply on a trolling effort before that. And that is now being abused to push the troll agenda.

Not my quote. But DChemTech clearly does state 'Well, Perez was about 40s behind Bottas - and remember, some claim Bottas is of "Mazepin level".' which indicates he's seen it claimed somewhere, so it's probably best to address that to him rather than me. But in the past people have absolutely stated on here Bottas is 'worse' than Giovanazzi and on Latifi's level which is equally absurd.

But essentially we are agreeing anyway. Bottas is by no means one of the worst drivers on the grid, and using him or Perez as a stick to try and beat either Hamilton or Verstappen with is just silly.

i don't understand why someone would feel so offended when bottas is compared with mazepin. i said in one of my post that, bottas is at mazepin level and i am sure it has hurt you. if you don't fully understand, you should do some research before showing all the frustration over what is posted.
mazepin finished 6th in f2 last year while his team mate finished at 10th. he had 2 wins and four 2nd place finishes. he ended the season with 56 points behind the championship winner. fast forward a few months, he is in the top category and struggling to even keep the car on track. it shows that, when a driver has a good equipment, he can look good, like mazepin's f2 season shows. same applies to bottas who is made to look good by virtue of having history's best cars under his disposal. but yet, nowhere close to his team mate and finishing woefully far off. put mazepin in those mercedes cars, he might as well look that good or may be better.
without using appropriate parameters and using stats alone on the face of it, if a driver is glorified as a good driver, then you are bound feel disappointed when someone points out the other perspective with some context.

[dans79]

This is extremely interesting. It's the first time he's really ever followed him closely for several laps. He's clearly seen something that maybe he thinks he can take advantage of. Maybe a trait or a weakness.

Or it's a bluff and a very clever bit of psychology.

I think it'll be about his braking points and the lines he takes in to corners. Useful information if you're going to be wheel-to-wheel with someone. There is possibly a bit of mind games stuff too, although it's a fairly obvious attempt if so and unlikely to be too worrying to Max.

Yeah I agree. He's learned some tendencies. I think it's going to be similar to what Peter Windsor was saying. If there's something that stood out to him watching them drive so closely together on television, then it'll have jumped out like a fish at a barn dance to Hamilton from the view he had of it.

Peter is just parotting stuff Rob Wilson has said about Lewis for years. If you go to Peter's youtube channel and search for Rob Wilson you'll see several videos where he talks about various drivers.

[El Scorchio]

Nobody claimed that. Somebody said Max is of Bottas level. To which it was replied, well, if you believe that then you must think Bottas is of mazepin level. So it was actually a sensible reply on a trolling effort before that. And that is now being abused to push the troll agenda.

Not my quote. But DChemTech clearly does state 'Well, Perez was about 40s behind Bottas - and remember, some claim Bottas is of "Mazepin level".' which indicates he's seen it claimed somewhere, so it's probably best to address that to him rather than me. But in the past people have absolutely stated on here Bottas is 'worse' than Giovanazzi and on Latifi's level which is equally absurd.

But essentially we are agreeing anyway. Bottas is by no means one of the worst drivers on the grid, and using him or Perez as a stick to try and beat either Hamilton or Verstappen with is just silly.

i don't understand why someone would feel so offended when bottas is compared with mazepin. i said in one of my post that, bottas is at mazepin level and i am sure it has hurt you. if you don't fully understand, you should do some research before showing all the frustration over what is posted.
mazepin finished 6th in f2 last year while his team mate finished at 10th. he had 2 wins and four 2nd place finishes. he ended the season with 56 points behind the championship winner. fast forward a few months, he is in the top category and struggling to even keep the car on track. it shows that, when a driver has a good equipment, he can look good, like mazepin's f2 season shows. same applies to bottas who is made to look good by virtue of having history's best cars under his disposal. but yet, nowhere close to his team mate and finishing woefully far off. put mazepin in those mercedes cars, he might as well look that good or may be better.
without using appropriate parameters and using stats alone on the face of it, if a driver is glorified as a good driver, then you are bound feel disappointed when someone points out the other perspective with some context.

I'm not offended. I just think its objectively not true to say Bottas and Mazepin are on the same level, or anything like it. If they were, Bottas would have been out on his ear at Mercedes years ago, because there would be no sense in flushing millions of dollars down the toilet every year employing him, instead of any old rookie driver fresh out of a reasonable performance in a junior formula.

[El Scorchio]

Not my quote. But DChemTech clearly does state 'Well, Perez was about 40s behind Bottas - and remember, some claim Bottas is of "Mazepin level".' which indicates he's seen it claimed somewhere, so it's probably best to address that to him rather than me. But in the past people have absolutely stated on here Bottas is 'worse' than Giovanazzi and on Latifi's level which is equally absurd.

But essentially we are agreeing anyway. Bottas is by no means one of the worst drivers on the grid, and using him or Perez as a stick to try and beat either Hamilton or Verstappen with is just silly.

I did, for this reason:

please stop using bottas as a reference. he is as sloppy as mazepin. he doesn't even show desire to fight on track and is content for a walk in the park. lewis repeated what he did in hungary 2019, which clearly suggest w12 is as fast as it's predecessors. no need to make it a point as if one driver is driving beyond what a car can do. same applies to red bull. both teams have below par second drivers. i always maintained that mercedes is the better car and winter testing was as misleading as it it can get due to mercedes not having found the sweet spot of set up. now thry and w12 shows it's every bit reincarnation of w11.

But even if I were using the "Bottas is as bad as Mazepin" (Which, to emphasize, is certainly not my opinion), the point stands: if (1) the RB and MB have equal pace and (2) Bottas and Verstappen have been reasonably close in the past 2 races then (3) the logical conclusion is that Bottas and Verstappen are performing equally, and since (4) most people don't rank Bottas highly, the logical conclusion is that (5) Verstappen is also not ranked highly.

I don't think Bottas and Verstappen are performing similarly - which then leads me to conclude that the RB, in race pace, is the lesser car. I don't think that's an earth-shattering conclusion, but to some, apparently the notion is unacceptable, and such a claim can only be made by people that "cannot accept that Max could possibly lose in an equal car"

(further clarification: I am not using car performance as an 'excuse' for Max; I am as annoyed by people that claim Max could not possibly lose in an equal car, as by people that claim RB and MB are currently equal and Lewis is god.)

I don't think there's a gulf in performance between the cars. The Bull started the season as the stronger package but Mercedes has improved a little each race, caught up, and it's now the stronger package. I think that's a fair statement.

I also find it weird the way some people seemingly can't just appreciate that both Hamilton and Verstappen are wonderful drivers and neither of their team mates is on the same level as either of them. (Which is absolutely nothing to be ashamed of- just like it's no shame not to be Messi or Ronaldo) Sometimes it feels like there are more attempts at point scoring off the track rather than on it.

[MKlaus]

Not my quote. But DChemTech clearly does state 'Well, Perez was about 40s behind Bottas - and remember, some claim Bottas is of "Mazepin level".' which indicates he's seen it claimed somewhere, so it's probably best to address that to him rather than me. But in the past people have absolutely stated on here Bottas is 'worse' than Giovanazzi and on Latifi's level which is equally absurd.

But essentially we are agreeing anyway. Bottas is by no means one of the worst drivers on the grid, and using him or Perez as a stick to try and beat either Hamilton or Verstappen with is just silly.

i don't understand why someone would feel so offended when bottas is compared with mazepin. i said in one of my post that, bottas is at mazepin level and i am sure it has hurt you. if you don't fully understand, you should do some research before showing all the frustration over what is posted.
mazepin finished 6th in f2 last year while his team mate finished at 10th. he had 2 wins and four 2nd place finishes. he ended the season with 56 points behind the championship winner. fast forward a few months, he is in the top category and struggling to even keep the car on track. it shows that, when a driver has a good equipment, he can look good, like mazepin's f2 season shows. same applies to bottas who is made to look good by virtue of having history's best cars under his disposal. but yet, nowhere close to his team mate and finishing woefully far off. put mazepin in those mercedes cars, he might as well look that good or may be better.
without using appropriate parameters and using stats alone on the face of it, if a driver is glorified as a good driver, then you are bound feel disappointed when someone points out the other perspective with some context.

I'm not offended. I just think its objectively not true to say Bottas and Mazepin are on the same level, or anything like it. If they were, Bottas would have been out on his ear at Mercedes years ago, because there would be no sense in flushing millions of dollars down the toilet every year employing him, instead of any old rookie driver fresh out of a reasonable performance in a junior formula.

the reality is, he is being saved by his team mate, who is simply so far ahead on performance that, he balances the wcc also, even if bottas is finishing 3rd or 4th or 5th in a season. not just that bottas is made to look good by the car on his part, but also largely by his team mate, because his team mate is seemingly making full use of the machinery available. if his team mate's contributions would have been any less than that, bottas would have looked far worse off due to difficult wcc situation. like i said earlier, he is also lucky that, mercedes' nearest rival has someone similar to him on the other car for all these years now which is also another contributing factor. when ferrari was a contender, it was kimi that was equally poor and when red bull became contender, it was the likes of gasly, albon and now perez. put all these things together and then look at the larger picture of bottas, it isn't too far off to say he is mazepin. in gasly and albon's favor, one can argue they had extremely difficult cars at their disposal, but that can't be said of bottas.

[DChemTech]

I don't think there's a gulf in performance between the cars. The Bull started the season as the stronger package but Mercedes has improved a little each race, caught up, and it's now the stronger package. I think that's a fair statement.

I also find it weird the way some people seemingly can't just appreciate that both Hamilton and Verstappen are wonderful drivers and neither of their team mates is on the same level as either of them. (Which is absolutely nothing to be ashamed of- just like it's no shame not to be Messi or Ronaldo) Sometimes it feels like there are more attempts at point scoring off the track rather than on it.

I absolutely agree there. The performance difference is not large and in race 1, RB had the edge. And indeed, nothing to be ashamed of - we are in for a great season, if they manage to keep the cars close together.

[SiLo]

Anyone that can't see Bottas is doing the job Mercedes employ him to do is surely not watching the same sport as me. Yes he is not as fast as Hamilton (and terrible in the wet) but otherwise he is on the podium, and always there to help Mercedes win races such as this one with strategy. Saying he is on par with Mazepin is genuinely brain-dead. He is almost always close to Lewis in qualifying, and maybe in the race he is 10s down the road, but 0.15s per lap slower than Lewis still puts him above a lot of people on the grid.

Amazed this is even a discussion to be honest. He had that terrible race in Imola, but otherwise has done what the team need him to do. Yes he got stuck behind Sainz, but its almost impossible to overtake here and was always a risk.

[the EDGE]

Anyone that can't see Bottas is doing the job Mercedes employ him to do is surely not watching the same sport as me. Yes he is not as fast as Hamilton (and terrible in the wet) but otherwise he is on the podium, and always there to help Mercedes win races such as this one with strategy. Saying he is on par with Mazepin is genuinely brain-dead. He is almost always close to Lewis in qualifying, and maybe in the race he is 10s down the road, but 0.15s per lap slower than Lewis still puts him above a lot of people on the grid.

Amazed this is even a discussion to be honest. He had that terrible race in Imola, but otherwise has done what the team need him to do. Yes he got stuck behind Sainz, but its almost impossible to overtake here and was always a risk.

couldn't agree more!

edit: Lewis & Max have pretty much shown they are in a league of their own, it must be demoralising for their team mates

[LM10]

RBR strategy lost Max the race. They should have put him on brand new Softs after Ham had pitted the second time.

They would have to pull a 1.4s pitstop for that. Hamilton gained 0.8s trough second and third sector alone. Add a few tenths trough first sector out the box and there's not way you can cover than undercut.

I was not thinking of covering the undercut, but pitting for new Softs a couple of laps after Lewis and then overtaking him on track. Then Max would have had some 15 or so laps fresher Softs than the Mediums he had before pitting. But thinking again, even if he had overtaken Hamilton with those new Softs, he probably could have not stayed in front anyway - Hamilton would have overtaken him eventually. His pace on the Mediums was crazy.

[PlatinumZealot]

I dont understand the cries to change Bottas to a faster driver coming from the same persons that are saying the Mercedes is ahead?
So they want Mercedes to be even stronger now? Strange. I thought they wanted Merc to be slower?

[LM10]

RBR strategy lost Max the race. They should have put him on brand new Softs after Ham had pitted the second time.

It wasn't the strategy, max didn't have the pace. Lewis spent an obscene amount of time on Max's gearbox well within the undercut envelope.

Max definitely didn’t have the pace compared to Hamilton. That’s why a different strategy maybe could have had another impact (Softs vs. Mediums), but Lewis was just too fast yesterday. His relentless following right around the DRS-range for the majority of the race and without any meaningful drop of pace was scary.

[El Scorchio]

i don't understand why someone would feel so offended when bottas is compared with mazepin. i said in one of my post that, bottas is at mazepin level and i am sure it has hurt you. if you don't fully understand, you should do some research before showing all the frustration over what is posted.
mazepin finished 6th in f2 last year while his team mate finished at 10th. he had 2 wins and four 2nd place finishes. he ended the season with 56 points behind the championship winner. fast forward a few months, he is in the top category and struggling to even keep the car on track. it shows that, when a driver has a good equipment, he can look good, like mazepin's f2 season shows. same applies to bottas who is made to look good by virtue of having history's best cars under his disposal. but yet, nowhere close to his team mate and finishing woefully far off. put mazepin in those mercedes cars, he might as well look that good or may be better.
without using appropriate parameters and using stats alone on the face of it, if a driver is glorified as a good driver, then you are bound feel disappointed when someone points out the other perspective with some context.

I'm not offended. I just think its objectively not true to say Bottas and Mazepin are on the same level, or anything like it. If they were, Bottas would have been out on his ear at Mercedes years ago, because there would be no sense in flushing millions of dollars down the toilet every year employing him, instead of any old rookie driver fresh out of a reasonable performance in a junior formula.

the reality is, he is being saved by his team mate, who is simply so far ahead on performance that, he balances the wcc also, even if bottas is finishing 3rd or 4th or 5th in a season. not just that bottas is made to look good by the car on his part, but also largely by his team mate, because his team mate is seemingly making full use of the machinery available. if his team mate's contributions would have been any less than that, bottas would have looked far worse off due to difficult wcc situation. like i said earlier, he is also lucky that, mercedes' nearest rival has someone similar to him on the other car for all these years now which is also another contributing factor. when ferrari was a contender, it was kimi that was equally poor and when red bull became contender, it was the likes of gasly, albon and now perez. put all these things together and then look at the larger picture of bottas, it isn't too far off to say he is mazepin. in gasly and albon's favor, one can argue they had extremely difficult cars at their disposal, but that can't be said of bottas.

I just can't agree with your assessment of his talent. Obviously I'm not going to claim anything silly like he's a top tier driver but for me he's comfortably middle of the pack. As I said, Mercedes aren't stupid or a charity and they don't owe him a living. If he were anything like as bad as you say, he just wouldn't be in the car. They have had plenty of much cheaper options available for several years if it was just as simple as sticking any old driver in there and racking up podiums. Why wouldn't they have given the seat to Vandoorne, Wehrlein or any number of other drivers for a fraction of the cost?

[El Scorchio]

I don't think there's a gulf in performance between the cars. The Bull started the season as the stronger package but Mercedes has improved a little each race, caught up, and it's now the stronger package. I think that's a fair statement.

I also find it weird the way some people seemingly can't just appreciate that both Hamilton and Verstappen are wonderful drivers and neither of their team mates is on the same level as either of them. (Which is absolutely nothing to be ashamed of- just like it's no shame not to be Messi or Ronaldo) Sometimes it feels like there are more attempts at point scoring off the track rather than on it.

I absolutely agree there. The performance difference is not large and in race 1, RB had the edge. And indeed, nothing to be ashamed of - we are in for a great season, if they manage to keep the cars close together.

100%! It's been a really good season so far and it's really not going to take much to tip the balance one way or another. A little setup breakthrough or update here or there. Strategy also key. Mercedes have been very clever with that so far and manufactured advantageous situations with tyre life imbalances which has been key.