Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Yes correct. The downside to turbocharged engines. (Turbochargers system as used in formula 1) is the turbine being a pressure turbine and the back pressure it causes. That is exactly why these engines can only produce maximum power output possible in free load mode (waste-gate/s open and compressor in electric supercharger mode).

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godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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gruntguru wrote:
Sun May 30, 2021 10:07 pm
The turbine type mandated by the rules cannot be operated as a pump or compressor.

(at least not without reversing the plumbing connections and the direction of rotation)
As in using 2 compressors instead of a compressor and turbine? Then you're routing the exhaust gases into the compressor inlet, and the outlets become the wastegate(s)? Well I realize how foolish the idea is. Constructive criticism is much appreciated.

Just wondering what it would be like if you had a way to maintain manifold pressure independent of the compressor, like with an air tank or something.
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gruntguru
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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godlameroso wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 9:09 pm
gruntguru wrote:
Sun May 30, 2021 10:07 pm
The turbine type mandated by the rules cannot be operated as a pump or compressor.

(at least not without reversing the plumbing connections and the direction of rotation)
As in using 2 compressors instead of a compressor and turbine? Then you're routing the exhaust gases into the compressor inlet, and the outlets become the wastegate(s)? Well I realize how foolish the idea is. Constructive criticism is much appreciated.

Just wondering what it would be like if you had a way to maintain manifold pressure independent of the compressor, like with an air tank or something.
I was only commenting on whether the existing turbine could be used as a pump to electrically evacuate the exhaust manifold (it can't). If it was for example a positive displacement device (piston or rootes expander) it could be motored to pump exhaust gas out of the engine.
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Tommy Cookers
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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saviour stivala wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 3:09 pm
Yes correct. The downside to turbocharged engines. (Turbochargers system as used in formula 1) is the turbine being a pressure turbine and the back pressure it causes. That is exactly why these engines can only produce maximum power output possible in free load mode (waste-gate/s open and compressor in electric supercharger mode).
some NACA papers that I had linked have said that ......

a turbine working on KE 'pulses' (aka 'blowdown turbine') can harvest without drop in mean exhaust pressure so ....
another turbine thereafter causing a drop in mean exhaust pressure can harvest from that drop

I shall try to add the link here when I find it
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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gruntguru wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 11:15 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 9:09 pm
gruntguru wrote:
Sun May 30, 2021 10:07 pm
The turbine type mandated by the rules cannot be operated as a pump or compressor.

(at least not without reversing the plumbing connections and the direction of rotation)
As in using 2 compressors instead of a compressor and turbine? Then you're routing the exhaust gases into the compressor inlet, and the outlets become the wastegate(s)? Well I realize how foolish the idea is. Constructive criticism is much appreciated.

Just wondering what it would be like if you had a way to maintain manifold pressure independent of the compressor, like with an air tank or something.
I was only commenting on whether the existing turbine could be used as a pump to electrically evacuate the exhaust manifold (it can't). If it was for example a positive displacement device (piston or rootes expander) it could be motored to pump exhaust gas out of the engine.
Right, and the reason why is because the turbine in design is the inversion of the compressor. The part that shoots out gas on the compressor is used as the inlet on the turbine, and the part that would be the inlet is also inverted, so the effect is the turbine works inverse to the compressor. It is fed compressed air and reduces the pressure of the gas at the exhaust, thus extracting torque.

If the turbine design would be inverted, then the inlet of this type of turbine would be the same as the compressor. That is the inlet would would be at the front of this device. The exhaust pulses would not be diffused but rather compressed further, and likely causing flow reversion. You would still have backpressure but it would be outside of the system, and the internal resistance of the exhaust gases being further compressed, and rebounding compression waves. Would the combustion engine even be capable of powering such a device? "Twin compressor engine"

IF you could think of any advantages of having such a system, the aforementioned exhaust scavenging, along with a prodigious amount of exhaust volume?
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saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:41 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 3:09 pm
Yes correct. The downside to turbocharged engines. (Turbochargers system as used in formula 1) is the turbine being a pressure turbine and the back pressure it causes. That is exactly why these engines can only produce maximum power output possible in free load mode (waste-gate/s open and compressor in electric supercharger mode).
some NACA papers that I had linked have said that ......

a turbine working on KE 'pulses' (aka 'blowdown turbine') can harvest without drop in mean exhaust pressure so ....
another turbine thereafter causing a drop in mean exhaust pressure can harvest from that drop

I shall try to add the link here when I find it
In trying to save you time finding the 'link'. ''Blow-down turbines -F1technical.net 07 Oct 2014''.

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bigblue
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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No new news I think, but a nice summary of this years changes, and an overview of previous years : https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/how-h ... r/6524978/

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etusch
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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bigblue wrote:
Wed Jun 02, 2021 3:58 pm
No new news I think, but a nice summary of this years changes, and an overview of previous years : https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/how-h ... r/6524978/
The combustion chamber design was also altered in this redesign and, once again, you can see the inlet plenum and exhaust system were adjusted in correlation. Even with these substantial changes the 2017 power unit was actually down on total output when compared to its predecessor, which became the straw that broke the camel's back in its relationship with McLaren.
In the article there is such a part. I knew that that engine was good at power wise. Especially second part of the season.

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nzjrs
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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bigblue wrote:
Wed Jun 02, 2021 3:58 pm
No new news I think, but a nice summary of this years changes, and an overview of previous years : https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/how-h ... r/6524978/
I love that these sort of articles can be written about honda because they release so much information in the (at least) Japanese media.

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ispano6
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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nzjrs wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:01 am
bigblue wrote:
Wed Jun 02, 2021 3:58 pm
No new news I think, but a nice summary of this years changes, and an overview of previous years : https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/how-h ... r/6524978/
I love that these sort of articles can be written about honda because they release so much information in the (at least) Japanese media.
More so thanks to the people who bring them to light and translate them. Some of the information undoubtedly is from reading our posts.

GhostF1
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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etusch wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:55 am
bigblue wrote:
Wed Jun 02, 2021 3:58 pm
No new news I think, but a nice summary of this years changes, and an overview of previous years : https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/how-h ... r/6524978/
The combustion chamber design was also altered in this redesign and, once again, you can see the inlet plenum and exhaust system were adjusted in correlation. Even with these substantial changes the 2017 power unit was actually down on total output when compared to its predecessor, which became the straw that broke the camel's back in its relationship with McLaren.
In the article there is such a part. I knew that that engine was good at power wise. Especially second part of the season.
Found the slide that Honda showed to its staff internally which was leaked and it physically showed the power loss from 2016 to 2017, but you're right, second half they gained it back, but RA618 Spec 4 (new combustion design) + new fuel at the end of 2018 was a huge jump, one they claimed was their biggest single gain ever. End of 2019 they were level pegging with Mercedes.
And now, the 2021 PU increase they say was a jump that surpassed the gains of that 2018 Spec 4.

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subcritical71
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godlameroso wrote:
Sat May 29, 2021 7:15 pm
Turbocharged engines are great at breathing, they were made to fly planes higher than the competition. Even at high altitudes where the air is thinner turbo engines breathe very well. Where turbo engines are held back is the turbine, it causes back pressure, and the pun is in the cringe of all time sweepstakes.

The MGU-H can reduce back pressure, but can it go to the next level and create a "deep belly breathe" engine?
Going a little further back, can the wastegate outlets be positioned in a sufficiently low pressure area to promote better breathing?

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godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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subcritical71 wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:01 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Sat May 29, 2021 7:15 pm
Turbocharged engines are great at breathing, they were made to fly planes higher than the competition. Even at high altitudes where the air is thinner turbo engines breathe very well. Where turbo engines are held back is the turbine, it causes back pressure, and the pun is in the cringe of all time sweepstakes.

The MGU-H can reduce back pressure, but can it go to the next level and create a "deep belly breathe" engine?
Going a little further back, can the wastegate outlets be positioned in a sufficiently low pressure area to promote better breathing?
The wastegate itself relieves the pressure in the exhaust manifold, so that there is a lower pressure difference pre and post turbine. However the wastegate can't eliminate the heat caused by the combustion process. The turbine actually absorbs some of that heat energy which causes a pressure difference in the exhaust manifold vs post turbine.
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subcritical71
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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godlameroso wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:32 pm
subcritical71 wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:01 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Sat May 29, 2021 7:15 pm
Turbocharged engines are great at breathing, they were made to fly planes higher than the competition. Even at high altitudes where the air is thinner turbo engines breathe very well. Where turbo engines are held back is the turbine, it causes back pressure, and the pun is in the cringe of all time sweepstakes.

The MGU-H can reduce back pressure, but can it go to the next level and create a "deep belly breathe" engine?
Going a little further back, can the wastegate outlets be positioned in a sufficiently low pressure area to promote better breathing?
The wastegate itself relieves the pressure in the exhaust manifold, so that there is a lower pressure difference pre and post turbine. However the wastegate can't eliminate the heat caused by the combustion process. The turbine actually absorbs some of that heat energy which causes a pressure difference in the exhaust manifold vs post turbine.
I meant at the exhaust outlets. Can the teams influence the aero to allow a sufficient low pressure area in the area of the exhaust tips to promote better exhaust flow.

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godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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subcritical71 wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:02 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:32 pm
subcritical71 wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:01 pm


Going a little further back, can the wastegate outlets be positioned in a sufficiently low pressure area to promote better breathing?
The wastegate itself relieves the pressure in the exhaust manifold, so that there is a lower pressure difference pre and post turbine. However the wastegate can't eliminate the heat caused by the combustion process. The turbine actually absorbs some of that heat energy which causes a pressure difference in the exhaust manifold vs post turbine.
I meant at the exhaust outlets. Can the teams influence the aero to allow a sufficient low pressure area in the area of the exhaust tips to promote better exhaust flow.
Really nothing can be done post turbine, the turbine itself is the biggest exhaust obstacle. It's like putting a potato in your tail pipe, or maybe waffle fries.
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