2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

For ease of use, there is one thread per grand prix where you can discuss everything during that specific GP weekend. You can find these threads here.
User avatar
siskue2005
70
Joined: 11 May 2007, 21:50

Re: 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

Post

El Scorchio wrote:
07 Jun 2021, 21:42
nzjrs wrote:
07 Jun 2021, 20:47
El Scorchio wrote:
07 Jun 2021, 20:04


Bahrain- track limits
Imola- cars shouldn't be allowed to unlap under a red flag
Spain- track limits but the other way round (so contrary to the argument for Bahrain)
Monaco- anyone causing a red flag in qualifying should lose their time/grid slot
Baku- fastest lap point should apply to a non race finisher
Lol, you have a more sensitive memory than me then! I only remember the Monaco thing
Well, I'm blessed/cursed with a pretty good memory, (delete where applicable) and it's been a sort of running theme on here throughout the season so far so I guess I've just picked up on it.
True
-You can add some more to it like teammates are not supposed to give slip stream in qualifying to each other.
-Change Mercedes team who goes out first rule.

User avatar
El Scorchio
20
Joined: 29 Jul 2019, 12:41

Re: 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

Post

DChemTech wrote:
07 Jun 2021, 20:51
El Scorchio wrote:
07 Jun 2021, 20:04
nzjrs wrote:
07 Jun 2021, 19:42
Wait, what other rules do the strawman verstappen people 'want changed' ?
Bahrain- track limits
Imola- cars shouldn't be allowed to unlap under a red flag
Spain- track limits but the other way round (so contrary to the argument for Bahrain)
Monaco- anyone causing a red flag in qualifying should lose their time/grid slot
Baku- fastest lap point should apply to a non race finisher
Oh come on, talking about strawmanning. You know better than this.
Most of these points were just speculations afterwards, whether or not these were the best possible rules for a situation, or some alteration might be possible (and what the effects would be, considering pros and cons). One could wonder whether the race thread was the best place to have that discussion, but in the aftermath of a certain event, it is not surprising that such discussions are had. They were definitely not calls to see some immediate rule change, as you seem to put it.

The only exception to that is perhaps race 1, and that was actually not a call for a rule change, but a call for the FIA to apply track limits consistently, instead of in haphazardly selected corners which they assume may yield time-gains. And with that, to get rid of the rather awkward situation that an out-of-bounds overtake defaults to being an advantage, while regular digressions at the same location do not (even though those regular digressions may accumulate to more time gained over the race). I stand by that critique, and it would be rather sour if this season would end up being decided on that.

Spain, I honestly cannot believe anyone would argue that one seriously. I could understand people arguing it sarcastically, in light of race 1.
Spin it how you want, but during/after every single one of those race weekends, at least one person said they'd like the rules changed after certain things happened. I mean, you're still doing that exact same thing about Bahrain now which is sort of proving my point.

darkpino
darkpino
2
Joined: 31 Aug 2017, 17:35

Re: 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

Post

What a shitshow this place has become. I wonder what the average age is here nowadays… but on the other end i couldn’t care less. Just a shame the dick length competition overshadows the opinions of people actually knowing what they talk about. Time for a different place to read for me

User avatar
codetower
5
Joined: 15 Sep 2020, 16:47

Re: 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

Post

El Scorchio wrote:
07 Jun 2021, 19:15
dans79 wrote:
07 Jun 2021, 18:39
Sieper wrote:
07 Jun 2021, 18:34


Why not? It was set fair and square. I mean, the whole reason for not granting it while outside the top 10 is to not upset the race apparently. There is no upset if you set it while you were still in the top 10.
You would need a lot of caveats with that.

You can't fall out of the top 10 because you need to change to another set of tires, because you murdered the tires used to set fastest lap.

You can't fall out of the top 10, because you now need to slow down to save fuel to finish the race.

Same goes for falling out of the top 10 because the completely depleted the battery pack while setting the fastest lap, etc etc.

Saying you must finish in the top 10 is just a way to try and minimize the number of ways the teams can game the system.
I also think it should be a reward for finishing the race successfully as well as in the top ten.

If we're being blunt here, it's another rule that has been fine with zero complaints for over a season now, but this one weekend it hasn't worked out in Verstappen's favour and so it's not a coincidence we are having this conversation about the rule being flawed in some way.

I said way back on this very thread if some rule didn't work in Verstappen's favour over the weekend, someone would make a post wanting it changed, and multiple people have. Every weekend barring Portimao, this same thing has happened!

Nooo… I dont like the whole “participation award” thing. I think points for top 10 only… and I’d even go one further and penalize a driver a point for not finishing a race. Keep the drivers and teams on their toes!

User avatar
codetower
5
Joined: 15 Sep 2020, 16:47

Re: 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

Post

Artur Craft wrote:
07 Jun 2021, 13:49

Bad luck for Hamilton? From time to time, he has a few, isolated, bad luck incidents(like Melbourne 2014, Abu Dhabi 2012 or 2011) but, on the big picture, he has always been massively helped by luck.

The guy has some serious voodoo going his way. It´s insane how lucky he is.

I didn´t watch the race(was watching MotoGP, instead) but heard of what happened and I´m sure Max will not win the title, no matter how good he drives. Hamilton already had 3 pathetic performances this year(Imola, Monaco, Baku. Not to mention the lack of punishment in Bahrain that he got away with) and is still almost tied with Max. This guy can´t lose :wtf: Max will need some bad luck from Hamilton to counter balance the imense luck LH had yesterday and on Imola. Similar to Sepang 2016 countered the bad luck Rosberg had on Austria where Vettel´s tyre blow out damaged his car and, ultimately, took many points away from Nico on that race.
I'm not a fan of Hamilton, Toto or Mercedes, But I do respect them, they have a really good team over there; I don't think it's voodoo/luck. When "Luck" falls mostly in your favor, it's because you are working hard and doing things right. If you work hard and put yourself in a position to excel, you will usually benefit from the bad things that happen around you.

Not a fan of Max either, but I think right now he's probably the most talented driver in F1. AND it seems he finally has a car that can keep up with Merc. He's just gotta keep his head down, do his thing, and he could very well pull this off. This year Mercedes/Ham cant simply rely on that 100 point buffer by mid-season and coast the whole way. They will make more mistakes this season... It's only natural when you have pressure.

User avatar
El Scorchio
20
Joined: 29 Jul 2019, 12:41

Re: 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

Post

codetower wrote:
07 Jun 2021, 21:54
El Scorchio wrote:
07 Jun 2021, 19:15
dans79 wrote:
07 Jun 2021, 18:39


You would need a lot of caveats with that.

You can't fall out of the top 10 because you need to change to another set of tires, because you murdered the tires used to set fastest lap.

You can't fall out of the top 10, because you now need to slow down to save fuel to finish the race.

Same goes for falling out of the top 10 because the completely depleted the battery pack while setting the fastest lap, etc etc.

Saying you must finish in the top 10 is just a way to try and minimize the number of ways the teams can game the system.
I also think it should be a reward for finishing the race successfully as well as in the top ten.

If we're being blunt here, it's another rule that has been fine with zero complaints for over a season now, but this one weekend it hasn't worked out in Verstappen's favour and so it's not a coincidence we are having this conversation about the rule being flawed in some way.

I said way back on this very thread if some rule didn't work in Verstappen's favour over the weekend, someone would make a post wanting it changed, and multiple people have. Every weekend barring Portimao, this same thing has happened!

Nooo… I dont like the whole “participation award” thing. I think points for top 10 only… and I’d even go one further and penalize a driver a point for not finishing a race. Keep the drivers and teams on their toes!
Oh, that's savage! Wouldn't be popular at the top end of the grid, but interestingly it could be a way of separating the drivers who will probably finish the season on nil points (Probably the poor lads driving the WIlliams and Haas cars)

DChemTech
DChemTech
44
Joined: 25 Mar 2019, 11:31
Location: Delft, NL

Re: 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

Post

El Scorchio wrote:
07 Jun 2021, 21:51
Spin it how you want, but during/after every single one of those race weekends, at least one person said they'd like the rules changed after certain things happened. I mean, you're still doing that exact same thing about Bahrain now which is sort of proving my point.
I highlighted race 1 because that is the one case where I agree with you that people were genuinely asking for a change in how the FIA was administering the rules, but I still do find it very strange you are 'attacking' people for that - there were good reasons for that call (and not just in direct response to this race - also USA 2017, maybe Mexico 2016, and probably some other odd cases), and there were good reasons to bring that topic up after that race, given the events.

But that does not prove your point for any of the other cases. The context of the discussions as I recall them was never such that people were insisting on rule changes - they were unhappy with how the situation played out in those cases, wondered about potential rule changes, and brought them up for discussion. You can't really berate them for wanting to discuss things on a discussion forum, though you may disagree with the suggestions they made (which I did, too).

JPBD1990
JPBD1990
49
Joined: 22 Feb 2018, 12:19

Re: 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

Post

darkpino wrote:
07 Jun 2021, 21:53
What a shitshow this place has become. I wonder what the average age is here nowadays… but on the other end i couldn’t care less. Just a shame the dick length competition overshadows the opinions of people actually knowing what they talk about. Time for a different place to read for me
Agree. When I joined this forum I swear the ‘tribalism’ wasn’t as pronounced. But I do feel like that’s just the way the worlds going (not to sound tooooo old - I’m 30 so old but not that old). Just seems like this idea that every opinion is valid and correct has meant that people just dig their heels in and get more and more biased/one sided in their views.

Edax
Edax
47
Joined: 08 Apr 2014, 22:47

Re: 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

Post

darkpino wrote:
07 Jun 2021, 21:53
What a shitshow this place has become. I wonder what the average age is here nowadays… but on the other end i couldn’t care less. Just a shame the dick length competition overshadows the opinions of people actually knowing what they talk about. Time for a different place to read for me
look at it from the bright side. There hasn’t been a single discussion on track limits all weekend. At least Baku got that right. No trackside sensor can beat a broken front wing for evidence. :D

User avatar
dans79
267
Joined: 03 Mar 2013, 19:33
Location: USA

Re: 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

Post

Exactly what some of us said yesterday!

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/why-v ... i/6544910/
With his stricken Red Bull still being returned to the garage, the Dutchman suggested that Pirelli would shake off its responsibilities for what happened and claim that debris was the cause.

"For sure [there will be talks with Pirelli] but we know the result from that conversation already and that's a bit hard to accept," he told Dutch TV.

"It will be related to debris, it's like that. I'm sure there will be talks, Pirelli isn't happy with what happened here today, but it doesn't change anything to the race and the result I got here."
Sure enough, when a few hours later Pirelli's initial diagnosis was that suspected debris was the cause of the failures to the Red Bull and Lance Stroll's Aston Martin, it drew a cynical response from Verstappen's father Jos.

Tweeting in reply to a story on Autosport's sister site Motorsport.com detailing Pirelli's explanation, Verstappen posted: "They always say that."

An they are giving the same lame excuses, and double talk. I think a significantly more plausible scenario in this case would be that Lewis ran over debris from Max's accident, since he was only seconds behind.
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/pirel ... s/6541845/
Isola said a cut found on the left rear that came off Lewis Hamilton's car after the red flag indicated that a similar issue may have affected the other drivers, but in the world champion's case it had not compromised the construction.
"It was on the rear left tyre, that is not the most stressed here, because it's the rear right. And the other point if we talk about wear, the most worn tyre is the front right. So it is not a matter of wear.

"Another element that is important is that we found on the rear left tyre of Lewis Hamilton, another cut, quite a big one. This was at the red flag, so in the same stint where Max crashed.

"I believe it was debris, because they didn't have any warning that there was something strange on the car, on the suspension, on the tyre, on the brake, nothing was giving any sign of failure. And it was a sudden failure.

"So considering the rear left is not the most stressed tyre, the cut we found on Lewis's tyre and so on, these are indications that are taking us in that direction.

"But we don't want to exclude anything because as Max said, these things shouldn't happen."

Yet as was shown yesterday, even when Bottass hit a massive chunk of debris, the tire didn't instantly cause an accident.
197 104 103 7

User avatar
Sieper
73
Joined: 14 Mar 2017, 15:19

Re: 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

Post

El Scorchio wrote:
07 Jun 2021, 21:51
DChemTech wrote:
07 Jun 2021, 20:51
El Scorchio wrote:
07 Jun 2021, 20:04


Bahrain- track limits
Imola- cars shouldn't be allowed to unlap under a red flag
Spain- track limits but the other way round (so contrary to the argument for Bahrain)
Monaco- anyone causing a red flag in qualifying should lose their time/grid slot
Baku- fastest lap point should apply to a non race finisher
Oh come on, talking about strawmanning. You know better than this.
Most of these points were just speculations afterwards, whether or not these were the best possible rules for a situation, or some alteration might be possible (and what the effects would be, considering pros and cons). One could wonder whether the race thread was the best place to have that discussion, but in the aftermath of a certain event, it is not surprising that such discussions are had. They were definitely not calls to see some immediate rule change, as you seem to put it.

The only exception to that is perhaps race 1, and that was actually not a call for a rule change, but a call for the FIA to apply track limits consistently, instead of in haphazardly selected corners which they assume may yield time-gains. And with that, to get rid of the rather awkward situation that an out-of-bounds overtake defaults to being an advantage, while regular digressions at the same location do not (even though those regular digressions may accumulate to more time gained over the race). I stand by that critique, and it would be rather sour if this season would end up being decided on that.

Spain, I honestly cannot believe anyone would argue that one seriously. I could understand people arguing it sarcastically, in light of race 1.
Spin it how you want, but during/after every single one of those race weekends, at least one person said they'd like the rules changed after certain things happened. I mean, you're still doing that exact same thing about Bahrain now which is sort of proving my point.
I am calling you out on this one. Because I introduced this point. And I specifically asked to please NOT consider it a knee jurk whilst doing so. Yet here you are. So what gives.

User avatar
dans79
267
Joined: 03 Mar 2013, 19:33
Location: USA

Re: 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

Post

Sieper wrote:
08 Jun 2021, 02:26
El Scorchio wrote:
07 Jun 2021, 21:51
DChemTech wrote:
07 Jun 2021, 20:51


Oh come on, talking about strawmanning. You know better than this.
Most of these points were just speculations afterwards, whether or not these were the best possible rules for a situation, or some alteration might be possible (and what the effects would be, considering pros and cons). One could wonder whether the race thread was the best place to have that discussion, but in the aftermath of a certain event, it is not surprising that such discussions are had. They were definitely not calls to see some immediate rule change, as you seem to put it.

The only exception to that is perhaps race 1, and that was actually not a call for a rule change, but a call for the FIA to apply track limits consistently, instead of in haphazardly selected corners which they assume may yield time-gains. And with that, to get rid of the rather awkward situation that an out-of-bounds overtake defaults to being an advantage, while regular digressions at the same location do not (even though those regular digressions may accumulate to more time gained over the race). I stand by that critique, and it would be rather sour if this season would end up being decided on that.

Spain, I honestly cannot believe anyone would argue that one seriously. I could understand people arguing it sarcastically, in light of race 1.
Spin it how you want, but during/after every single one of those race weekends, at least one person said they'd like the rules changed after certain things happened. I mean, you're still doing that exact same thing about Bahrain now which is sort of proving my point.
I am calling you out on this one. Because I introduced this point. And I specifically asked to please NOT consider it a knee jurk whilst doing so. Yet here you are. So what gives.
Be careful, just because you brought it up, doesn't mean some crazy member didn't go off the deep end and post something ridiculous that was later removed by the moderation staff.

I've reported a lot of stuff over the last few race weekends, because people have posted utterly ridiculous stuff. I would not be surprised to learn that the moderators are removing several dozen posts every race weakened.
197 104 103 7

Rodak
Rodak
35
Joined: 04 Oct 2017, 03:02

Re: 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

Post

codetower wrote:
07 Jun 2021, 21:54
Nooo… I dont like the whole “participation award” thing. I think points for top 10 only… and I’d even go one further and penalize a driver a point for not finishing a race. Keep the drivers and teams on their toes!
Well, if you really want to 'Keep the drivers and teams on their toes!' we could go back to only awarding the first six finishers with points. It used to be pretty hard to get a point in a 26 car field.....

User avatar
Schuttelberg
3
Joined: 27 Jul 2015, 12:02

Re: 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

Post

Max has lost so many point due to bad luck. The next tracks are Mercedes paradise. That points gap was crucial.
"Sebastian there's very, you're a member of a very select few.. Stewart, Lauda, Piquet, Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Fangio.. VETTEL!"

User avatar
langedweil
0
Joined: 23 Mar 2018, 20:51
Location: Caribbean

Re: 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

Post

PlatinumZealot wrote:
07 Jun 2021, 14:17
Max MUST make less mistakes than Lewis if he wants to win.
Isn't that just at the core of any WDC/WCC, and goes in any direction?

That sounds almost Cruijff-ian ("Soccer is simple, if you make just one goal more than your opponent, you win ..")
HuggaWugga !