Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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Chuckjr
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Wazari-San,

Sir, my deepest condolences for your losses. I am so sorry to hear the news you shared.

Thank you for your post and I’m sure most everyone in the forum looks forward to hearing whatever details you wish to share in the future. I especially am curious about the Kumamoto plating technique that seems to have been a central feature to a number of the ingenious upgrades you and your team managed in the new engine. Well done.

Congratulations on the success of the power unit to date as it seems you all have made something quite special. I’m enjoying the tap dancing going on right now at Mercedes. I’m sure it brings a smile to your face also—well deserved, sir. You and the teams efforts have made this season quite special. Thank you.

Best wishes and thank you for making the sharp end of the grid competitive again.

—————

Kumamoto plating is mentioned in this article for anyone interested:

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hond ... 98/?nrt=54

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ispano6
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Some things should remain a secret, even after F1. Kumamoto plating, as mentioned in the original japanese article last year, is a material innovation not manufactured by anyone else in the world. That is the actual claim in the article made by the Honda staff, so it would be extremely unwise for anyone from Honda to reveal what that process and material is. The truth is Honda and Japan shouldn't reveal what gives them competitive advantage in this day and age of competition and intellectual property theft. If you don't agree or understand, don't worry about it. I also mentioned to my wife that the Honda PUs engine performance benefited from oil development based on components that originated from the cosmetics industry and she asked me is it Fujifilm's cosmetics nanotechnology pioneered in 2013? She was telling me about an ultrafine foundation powder developed by a Japanese female researcher using nanotechnology that made a foundation superior to any other that existed. The 8 year span does add up to 2021 and ExxonMobil had been promoting nanofluid research since 2010. Petronas too has been involved in nanomaterials research so they likely have incorporated it into their F1 fuels and lubricants.

For some early info on the matter, check out https://www.aogr.com/magazine/cover-sto ... m-applicat

tok-tokkie
tok-tokkie
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Wazari-san. I thank you for the background real information you have provided over many years.

I have been puzzled as to why the skunk works design was held back for, it seems, two years. It would have only been used in 2022 but, because of the impending rule changes, it has been used this year. Why was Honda so cautious? (Over cautious?)

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godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Cosmetic derived additive. Only one I can think of is hBN. They put that stuff in turbo maxx, so maybe they are using the max factor.

Motor oil is a soup of different stuff, if you have a really good base stock, you don't have to use too many additives.
Saishū kōnā

PhillipM
PhillipM
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hBN is hardly a breakthrough, even road car oils have been using that for decades. Can't see it being that, maybe a variant of it, nanosheets used to hold oil molecules against the surface perhaps.

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Pyrone89
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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godlameroso wrote:
Wed Jun 30, 2021 12:22 pm
Cosmetic derived additive. Only one I can think of is hBN. They put that stuff in turbo maxx, so maybe they are using the max factor.

Motor oil is a soup of different stuff, if you have a really good base stock, you don't have to use too many additives.
Max factor from Loreal? :mrgreen:
True GOATs don’t need the help of superior material to win.

Tom Brady, Usain Bolt are true GOATs.

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amho
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Binotto also does not back up Mercedes' views that Red Bull's straightline speed gain has been helped by a step forward in engine performance.

He suggests that Red Bull partner Honda may have been forced to wind down its engine in the opening rounds of the season because of reliability concerns, and only now has unleashed its full performance which it could show at limited times earlier in the campaign.

"I don't share [the view] of what I hear and read about, because the performance of the Honda engine, looking at the GPS data, corresponds to the performance they had at the beginning of the season in Bahrain," he explained.

"Then, they had to reduce performance due to reliability issues. I think by solving that, they're back to the standards they had at the start of the season.
There is no Might or Power except with Allah.

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Big Tea
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Pyrone89 wrote:
Wed Jun 30, 2021 7:42 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Wed Jun 30, 2021 12:22 pm
Cosmetic derived additive. Only one I can think of is hBN. They put that stuff in turbo maxx, so maybe they are using the max factor.

Motor oil is a soup of different stuff, if you have a really good base stock, you don't have to use too many additives.
THE Max factor from Loreal? :mrgreen:
How can I learn Braille for 'Danger do not touch'

Sasha
Sasha
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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godlameroso wrote:
Tue Jun 29, 2021 1:42 pm
I wonder...Did they switch additives? I know ionic liquids(like phosphonium) can create electronic interference, if they were using that in their original oil formulation it may explain why they had to dial back the MGU-K a bit. It also explains why they'd use a "cosmetic" derived additive, if it's what I think it is, it has very good properties without the electronic interference since it's ceramic based.
I would put my money on a cosmetic derived additive the Japanese first used in late 1930s but stopped 1940 because it was too expensive and is still too expensive today but recent research pictures it as a miracle particle.

I have been telling Wazari for years to use it in lubrication ( liquid and solid) and in alloys for strength, very low friction,low thermal expansion,high heat transfer, low conducting, doesn't burn and piezoelectric.
It bonds better than CNT because it shares electrons so it makes a stronger matrix. CNT doesn't share and repulse from the other materials when put into matrix.

BN
In all forms.
In competitive long range shooting it replaced moly because it just better with the bonus of more accurate shots because of the better lubrication, heat and wear properties.

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ispano6
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Sasha wrote:
Wed Jun 30, 2021 11:12 pm

I would put my money on a cosmetic derived additive the Japanese first used in late 1930s but stopped 1940 because it was too expensive and is still too expensive today but recent research pictures it as a miracle particle.
It's pretty incredible that researchers could actually work at a nanoscale back then and how far nanotechnology has advanced in the last two decades. Honda's involvement in F1 hasn't been for nothing!

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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ispano6 wrote:
Wed Jun 30, 2021 5:32 am
Some things should remain a secret, even after F1. Kumamoto plating, as mentioned in the original japanese article last year, is a material innovation not manufactured by anyone else in the world. That is the actual claim in the article made by the Honda staff, so it would be extremely unwise for anyone from Honda to reveal what that process and material is. The truth is Honda and Japan shouldn't reveal what gives them competitive advantage in this day and age of competition and intellectual property theft. If you don't agree or understand, don't worry about it. I also mentioned to my wife that the Honda PUs engine performance benefited from oil development based on components that originated from the cosmetics industry and she asked me is it Fujifilm's cosmetics nanotechnology pioneered in 2013? She was telling me about an ultrafine foundation powder developed by a Japanese female researcher using nanotechnology that made a foundation superior to any other that existed. The 8 year span does add up to 2021 and ExxonMobil had been promoting nanofluid research since 2010. Petronas too has been involved in nanomaterials research so they likely have incorporated it into their F1 fuels and lubricants.

For some early info on the matter, check out https://www.aogr.com/magazine/cover-sto ... m-applicat
No one can say this.
What of other "secret platings?"
Someone just can't say that Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault have not secret platings for themselves.

Of all the engines on the grid the least secret ones would be the Honda then the Ferrari a distant second. Then Renault then Mercedes which we have no clue other than outside shots.
.. ... ... ... ...

dans79
dans79
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Jul 01, 2021 9:27 pm
No one can say this.
What of other "secret platings?"
Someone just can't say that Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault have not secret platings for themselves.

Of all the engines on the grid the least secret ones would be the Honda then the Ferrari a distant second. Then Renault then Mercedes which we have no clue other than outside shots.
It's been discussed in the past, But Mercedes uses their nanoslide technology. If memory serves Paddy Lowe mentioned it being used in 2014.
https://media.daimler.com/marsMediaSite ... d=14316637
173 101 99 7

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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The formula 1 car could have something different from the road car.
.. ... ... ... ...

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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The Honda has also managed a bigger turbocharger that also works well at a wider range of altitudes.
.. ... ... ... ...

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ispano6
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Honda’s Sakura facility will supply Red Bull F1 engines in 2022

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hond ... 24608/amp/
Red Bull will continue to receive its Formula 1 power units from outgoing partner Honda’s Sakura facility in 2022 as part of a “transitionary year” for the team.
Following Honda’s decision to quit F1 at the end of the 2021 season, Red Bull announced in February that it would be forming Red Bull Powertrains, taking on the IP of the existing Honda power units and bringing its production in house.

Red Bull has been working to expand its existing campus in Milton Keynes to incorporate a new engine facility, with its engines set to be badged as Red Bull from next year.

But it has been revealed that Honda’s Sakura facility will remain responsible for the assembly of the Red Bull engines next year.

“Yes, Red Bull and Honda have been working on that project, and then how to proceed in that transition for next year,” said Honda F1 technical director Toyoharu Tanabe.

“I cannot tell the detail, but generally we are going to a good direction and then we should prepare well for next year. So now we are working very hard, I am working very hard at the trackside.”

“We’re just finalising the detail of that,” added Red Bull F1 boss Christian Horner.

“Obviously as we gear ourselves up within Red Bull Powertrains, ’22 will be a transitionary year.

“So we’re working with Honda to have a soft landing where the engines will be continued to be assembled in Sakura in 2022, before that process is being taken on in our new facility in time for 2023.”

Horner confirmed that Red Bull would become entirely self-sufficient with the existing power unit from 2023, but would be “waiting with interest to see what comes out from the engine discussion for 2025 or even 2026.”

A crunch meeting between current F1 stakeholders and interesting manufacturers over the next generation of engines will take place on Saturday in Austria, with Red Bull outlining its hopes for a “clean sheet” approach.

Honda’s exit from F1 at the end of the year could come after the Japanese manufacturer wins a first world title since 1991, with Red Bull currently leading both championships.

Tanabe said while he did personally regret the decision to quit given Honda’s current form, nothing would change regardless of the championship result.

“Personally, yes but regardless the result of this year’s championship or our result, I think Honda’s decision has been not changed from their previous one,” Tanabe said.

“It means leaving Formula 1.”
It's great to know a Honda PU will be beating as the heart of the Red Bull car for 2022. Tost makes an interesting remark regarding Honda's departure after such a successful run in this year's campaign in that it serves Honda's marketing campaign to stay, but in truth the operations at American Honda do very little to shed any light on Honda F1s success that it seems at odds with the US executives. It kind of underscores Honda Racing's purpose as pure racers and their pursuit of innovation and technology. And that makes it's fans a very special group of Honda ambassadors.