2021 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, July 02 - 04

[darkpino]

I was baffled to see Max wasn't penalized in 2019 when driving Charles off the track. But in my opinion that exactly shows what's wrong. Both drivers always should respect each other and give each other room. Either being on the inside or outside doesn't matter in that case

[Wouter]

I don't know if this was posted already, because I don't read this thread anymore.
Here you can see where Lewis got his car damaged.

[henry]

I must admit to being baffled by the arguments for Norris having the right to drive Perez off the track.

But turning to the punishment 5 seconds seems far too lenient. Much better would be to require Norris to allow Perez past. Dropping him to 11th.

As a general rule the driver causing the incident should be relegated to below the driver they affect. If that means a black flag so be it. Then let them race.

I realise that gamesmanship would come in to play were this the rule. In F1 winning is paramount, not being the best.

[101FlyingDutchman]

The measuring point of where someone is alongside or not HAS to be defined otherwise this farce will continue.
For me it’s perhaps a line going out from the apex of the corner. It may not solve all cases or at all corners as there are always marginal ones to find.

Another possibility is this:
Maybe if the leading car has moved off the racing line to defend going into the corner it changes what you can and can’t do as the defending driver.

As it’s recognised that when you leave the racing line (could be marked out by a line on the road or defined by other means), you’ve acknowledged the possibility of being overtaken and therefore have to leave room for the other car. Simply running them out of road incurs a penalty


Both PER and NOR in the separate incidents where displaced off the racing line braking into the corner to defend an inside overtake. So now they would KNOW that they HAVE to leave a space if another car is trying to overtake. Simply running your own exit isn’t good enough

[i70q7m7ghw]

Thankfully, we can be safe in the knowledge that none of the nonsense suggested in this thread will ever be implemented, because despite their flaws, F1 is run by people that understand racing. Christian Horner even said that Norris shouldn't have been given a penalty.

[henry]

Thankfully, we can be safe in the knowledge that none of the nonsense suggested in this thread will ever be implemented, because despite their flaws, F1 is run by people that understand racing. Christian Horner even said that Norris shouldn't have been given a penalty.

I guess all sports have their custom and practice “rules”. Like soccer where sometimes you can pull a shirt and sometimes you can’t even though it can never be accidental. Makes sure there’s plenty of opportunities for controversy.

[sosic2121]

I think there needs to be a distinction here:

1. If the driver on the inside is ahead, he/she dictates the racing line so he/she can take the racing line even if it means closing the door on the driver who is outside.
2. If the driver on the outside is ahead, he/she dictates the racing line so he/she can hold his/her ground on the outside and force the driver in the inner lane to take a tighter, slower line.

I think the grey area here is where do you check who's ahead. Is it under braking? Is it at the apex? is it on exit? My personal view here as both someone who used to kart and drive some circuit races is to count it from the apex.

So going back, Lewis absolutely deserved the penalty when he hit Albon, because Albon was ahead already. In the case of Lando vs Sergio, I think Lando was ahead on the apex so he should have not been penalized IMO.

This no different to Max vs Charles on turn 3 at this same track. Max dove in the inside and took the apex ahead of Charles, so he dictated the exit and drove Charles off the track.

Me personally, I do not think it is always fair to penalize the driver for taking the inner (racing) line. If the FIA will always penalize the driver on the inside for taking the racing line even if he is ahead by the apex, then any driver can force the driver on the racing line to take a tighter and slower line out. I think that would be unfair as well.

IMO what max did is even worse than what happened in last race. Charles kept the racing line but max crashed him out of the track.

[WaikeCU]

Thankfully, we can be safe in the knowledge that none of the nonsense suggested in this thread will ever be implemented, because despite their flaws, F1 is run by people that understand racing. Christian Horner even said that Norris shouldn't have been given a penalty.

Probably because he wanted that Mclaren in P2 and not the Merc.

I take Christian's opinions with a grain of salt these days.

I don't think squeezing drivers off is the way to go, but I guess that's the way battles do these days. Unsure if we had such things in the past as in the 90's or earlier.

[sosic2121]

Thankfully, we can be safe in the knowledge that none of the nonsense suggested in this thread will ever be implemented, because despite their flaws, F1 is run by people that understand racing. Christian Horner even said that Norris shouldn't have been given a penalty.

Probably because he wanted that Mclaren in P2 and not the Merc.

I take Christian's opinions with a grain of salt these days.

I don't think squeezing drivers off is the way to go, but I guess that's the way battles do these days. Unsure if we had such things in the past as in the 90's or earlier.

probably

I remember Schumacher and Montoya pushed each other off the track. Back then only penalty was basically 25s(stop and go 10s) and it was rarely given (probably because it was harsh).

I believe we pushing wide becomes illegal it will not happen as often, but outside attempts will be more frequent.
IMO it leads to much better racing with drivers driving side by side.

[e30ernest]

Thankfully, we can be safe in the knowledge that none of the nonsense suggested in this thread will ever be implemented, because despite their flaws, F1 is run by people that understand racing. Christian Horner even said that Norris shouldn't have been given a penalty.

Probably because he wanted that Mclaren in P2 and not the Merc.

I take Christian's opinions with a grain of salt these days.

I don't think squeezing drivers off is the way to go, but I guess that's the way battles do these days. Unsure if we had such things in the past as in the 90's or earlier.

probably

I remember Schumacher and Montoya pushed each other off the track. Back then only penalty was basically 25s(stop and go 10s) and it was rarely given (probably because it was harsh).

I believe we pushing wide becomes illegal it will not happen as often, but outside attempts will be more frequent.
IMO it leads to much better racing with drivers driving side by side.

Would it? I can see this as a way for someone from the outside to forcibly squeeze the driver on the inside to a tighter, slower line.

[sosic2121]

Probably because he wanted that Mclaren in P2 and not the Merc.

I take Christian's opinions with a grain of salt these days.

I don't think squeezing drivers off is the way to go, but I guess that's the way battles do these days. Unsure if we had such things in the past as in the 90's or earlier.

probably

I remember Schumacher and Montoya pushed each other off the track. Back then only penalty was basically 25s(stop and go 10s) and it was rarely given (probably because it was harsh).

I believe we pushing wide becomes illegal it will not happen as often, but outside attempts will be more frequent.
IMO it leads to much better racing with drivers driving side by side.

Would it? I can see this as a way for someone from the outside to forcibly squeeze the driver on the inside to a tighter, slower line.

IMO it depends where it happens. outside car has to be protected only on exit and given a cars width. that's it. same goes for the apex, but reversed

[e30ernest]

probably

I remember Schumacher and Montoya pushed each other off the track. Back then only penalty was basically 25s(stop and go 10s) and it was rarely given (probably because it was harsh).

I believe we pushing wide becomes illegal it will not happen as often, but outside attempts will be more frequent.
IMO it leads to much better racing with drivers driving side by side.

Would it? I can see this as a way for someone from the outside to forcibly squeeze the driver on the inside to a tighter, slower line.

IMO it depends where it happens. outside car has to be protected only on exit and given a cars width. that's it. same goes for the apex, but reversed

IMO that should be the case if the outside car is ahead at the apex. If he is behind at the apex, this rule puts the car that is ahead (the one in the proper racing line) because the outside car can always force a tighter line (you must always leave the space).

There has to be an established right of way here or else the car on the outside will always have right of way. IMO whoever is ahead at the apex should be granted right of way.

[sosic2121]

I see your point, but IMO "1st at apex" opens can of worms. it encourages dive bombing.

Just to add, any clear set of rules is better than what we have today: "Well, he shouldn't even try to overtake on the outside, because he knows I will push him to the wall, grass, gravel, parking lot..."

[WaikeCU]

It's all about spatial awareness. Thriving that is what seperates the boys from the men. It seperates the dickheads from the legends (sry for my language). There's a reason why legends like Kimi are a master at this when going wheel to wheel with another.

[politburo]

The measuring point of where someone is alongside or not HAS to be defined otherwise this farce will continue.
For me it’s perhaps a line going out from the apex of the corner. It may not solve all cases or at all corners as there are always marginal ones to find.

Another possibility is this:
Maybe if the leading car has moved off the racing line to defend going into the corner it changes what you can and can’t do as the defending driver.

As it’s recognised that when you leave the racing line (could be marked out by a line on the road or defined by other means), you’ve acknowledged the possibility of being overtaken and therefore have to leave room for the other car. Simply running them out of road incurs a penalty


Both PER and NOR in the separate incidents where displaced off the racing line braking into the corner to defend an inside overtake. So now they would KNOW that they HAVE to leave a space if another car is trying to overtake. Simply running your own exit isn’t good enough

I have the inclination all this defending of Norris may be due to the fact he is well-liked and drives for the most popular team in F1 history. I remember quite well when Mazepin defended his line vs Tsunoda out of Les Combes in Spa last year (F2), and people harkened to call him a dirty driver and a brat for it - because he forced Tsunoda off the track whilst alongside and then in post-race interviews said he did nothing wrong but defend his line. Perhaps my inclination is wrong.

However, the overtaking rule is certainly clear like you just mentioned (in Appendix L of the FIA international Sporting Code), Norris and Perez certainly broke it just by the way it is written. But then the stewards, should enforce it the same everywhere, earlier in Barcelona Stroll and Alonso had an incident out of turn 1, Stroll is pushed off the track, goes over some kerbs, but it is tarmac run off so the stewards decide to let it go. It is either the rules apply as written or they only do so when we get to tracks with gravel/grass run-off, and at this point there is more evidence for the latter.