2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 - 18

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214270
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Hands up if you think the stewards were listening to the TV coverage, hence why they made the mistake of hanging the argument on this silly ‘apex’ fallacy?
Team ANTI-HYPE. Prove it, then I’ll anoint you.

Fnatic1
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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214270 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:39 pm
Hands up if you think the stewards were listening to the TV coverage, hence why they made the mistake of hanging the argument on this silly ‘apex’ fallacy?
No they review it based on the rulebook and similar incidents in the past.

Most recently we have had Austria 2021, where PER and NOR didn’t respect the drivers on the outside. Hope this clarifies.

maxxer
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 6:55 pm
I'm really done arguing over the incident itself. People won't change their beleifs over night.

All i know is that Lewis and Mercedes have benefited big time over this!!

Bagged 25 points to cut the lead down to 8 Pts.
Bagged 40 constructors points.
Rival chassis is destroyed. That will disrupt the rival team's schedules, cost them more money and likely an engine penalty too!

On the driver side the rival driver is shaken up, luckily he haa two weeks to heal... AND bonus points: he will suffer some sort of PTSD every tume he comes up on Lewis now.

So yeah these reprocussions (##blessings## if you are Lewis) or setbacks for the rival should go a far way in fighting the championship.
If it was Lecrec racing him Verstappen would happen every race , just the ferrari not up there yet

Marty_Y
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Regarding all this apex stuff, am I totally mistaken in thinking that drivers don't have to hit the apex, generally drivers try to hit the apex because in most cases that is the fastest way through a corner?

Also Hamilton hadn't even reached the apex of the corner before the incident took place, so that argument is null and void.

Fnatic1
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Marty_Y wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:55 pm
Regarding all this apex stuff, am I totally mistaken in thinking that drivers don't have to hit the apex, generally drivers try to hit the apex because in most cases that is the fastest way through a corner?

Also Hamilton hadn't even reached the apex of the corner before the incident took place, so that argument is null and void.
People refer to Hamilton understeering as a result of taking too much speed into the corner. He could have made the inside if he took less speed into the corner.

The rulebook states the defending party should leave a car width minimum, which the defending party did.

Hence the attacking party was deemed at fault.

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214270
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Fnatic1 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:53 pm
214270 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:39 pm
Hands up if you think the stewards were listening to the TV coverage, hence why they made the mistake of hanging the argument on this silly ‘apex’ fallacy?
No they review it based on the rulebook and similar incidents in the past.

Most recently we have had Austria 2021, where PER and NOR didn’t respect the drivers on the outside. Hope this clarifies.
No, you’re conflating overtake attempts on the outside with the inside. The rules are different. You’re making the same mistake the TV coverage guys made, this is why terms/phrases like ‘leaving space, apex’ etc. have no place in this discussion; it was an inside manoeuvre.

I’m convinced the stewards were taking their cues from the Sky, who themselves got it wrong.
Last edited by 214270 on Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Team ANTI-HYPE. Prove it, then I’ll anoint you.

maxxer
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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All these years when Lewis had an off day he still ended up in the points , when Max or Bottas have a bad day they end up with 0 points

maxxer
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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214270 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:01 pm
Fnatic1 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:53 pm
214270 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:39 pm
Hands up if you think the stewards were listening to the TV coverage, hence why they made the mistake of hanging the argument on this silly ‘apex’ fallacy?
No they review it based on the rulebook and similar incidents in the past.

Most recently we have had Austria 2021, where PER and NOR didn’t respect the drivers on the outside. Hope this clarifies.
No, you’re conflating overtake attempts on the outside with the inside. The rules are different. You’re making the same mistake the TV coverage guys made, this is why terms/phrases like ‘leaving space, apex’ etc. have no place in this discussion; it was an inside manoeuvre.

I’m convinced the stewards were taking their cues from the Sky, who themselves got it wrong.
Yes the guide is explained on motorsport if you are on the inside you need to be less ahead of a car to claim the corner then when you overtake from the outside

aMessageToCharlie
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Marty_Y wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:55 pm
Regarding all this apex stuff, am I totally mistaken in thinking that drivers don't have to hit the apex, generally drivers try to hit the apex because in most cases that is the fastest way through a corner?

Also Hamilton hadn't even reached the apex of the corner before the incident took place, so that argument is null and void.
He doesnt have to hit the apex necessarily. But since the other driver isnt obliged to give more than one cars width of space, he would need to make the corner within that space and without making contact imo. In this case he understeered slightly forward into him (which is also why HAM was on the breakes).

zibby43
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Honda engine boss on the incident:

“I think it was a racing incident because both drivers were also on each other's heels in all the previous corners, but the other driver is a seven-time champion,"

the Japanese chief said.

Tom145145
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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aMessageToCharlie wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:04 pm
Marty_Y wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:55 pm
Regarding all this apex stuff, am I totally mistaken in thinking that drivers don't have to hit the apex, generally drivers try to hit the apex because in most cases that is the fastest way through a corner?

Also Hamilton hadn't even reached the apex of the corner before the incident took place, so that argument is null and void.
He doesnt have to hit the apex necessarily. But since the other driver isnt obliged to give more than one cars width of space, he would need to make the corner within that space and without making contact imo. In this case he understeered slightly forward into him (which is also why HAM was on the breakes).
The one car width does not come into play whilst in the corner, Hamilton also left one car width. Both drivers are steering right and the gap on the right is therefore decreasing, with this logic Max can just keep turning until there is one car width regardless of a car being there.
This could have been avoided by both easily but that would have meant loosing the corner, so neither took the out.

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El Scorchio
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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zibby43 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:07 pm
Honda engine boss on the incident:

“I think it was a racing incident because both drivers were also on each other's heels in all the previous corners, but the other driver is a seven-time champion,"

the Japanese chief said.
You have to applaud him for sticking his neck out and saying that. Fair play to him.

SmallSoldier
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Fnatic1 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:53 pm
214270 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:39 pm
Hands up if you think the stewards were listening to the TV coverage, hence why they made the mistake of hanging the argument on this silly ‘apex’ fallacy?
No they review it based on the rulebook and similar incidents in the past.

Most recently we have had Austria 2021, where PER and NOR didn’t respect the drivers on the outside. Hope this clarifies.
Actually different situations:

A) On the NOR-PER incident, the driver on the inside is the defending car
B) On the NOR-PER incident, the penalty is for not leaving a car width space on the outside for the overtaking car

Fnatic1
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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SmallSoldier wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:19 pm
Fnatic1 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:53 pm
214270 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:39 pm
Hands up if you think the stewards were listening to the TV coverage, hence why they made the mistake of hanging the argument on this silly ‘apex’ fallacy?
No they review it based on the rulebook and similar incidents in the past.

Most recently we have had Austria 2021, where PER and NOR didn’t respect the drivers on the outside. Hope this clarifies.
Actually different situations:

A) On the NOR-PER incident, the driver on the inside is the defending car
B) On the NOR-PER incident, the penalty is for not leaving a car width space on the outside for the overtaking car
True, still the defending party should have left a car width on the outside, which they did not.

Verstappen was in this case the defending party, in this case on the outside. He left the car width, which he is obliged to.

Hamilton the attacking party who induced the understeer by taking too much speed into the corner at that kind of angle, hence the initiator of the contact and therefore at fault.
Last edited by Fnatic1 on Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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214270
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Fnatic1 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:27 pm
SmallSoldier wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:19 pm
Fnatic1 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:53 pm


No they review it based on the rulebook and similar incidents in the past.

Most recently we have had Austria 2021, where PER and NOR didn’t respect the drivers on the outside. Hope this clarifies.
Actually different situations:

A) On the NOR-PER incident, the driver on the inside is the defending car
B) On the NOR-PER incident, the penalty is for not leaving a car width space on the outside for the overtaking car
True, still the defending party should have left a car width on the outside, which they did not.

Verstappen was in this case the defending party, in this case on the outside. He left the car width, which he is entitled to.

Hamilton the attacking party who induced the understeer by taking too much speed into the corner at that kind of angle, hence the initiator of the contact and therefore at fault.
Nope, the person on the outside, defending must YIELD.

VER must yield.
Team ANTI-HYPE. Prove it, then I’ll anoint you.