2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 - 18

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Fnatic1
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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RZS10 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:38 pm
Fnatic1 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:03 pm
HAM trajectory didn’t leave space for VER trajectory going around the outside. Even if VER would have taken a wider line, a collision would have been likely inevitable.
It was marginal since they touched with the forward facing edge of the rear rim to the rearward facing edge of the front rim with the wheels almost being parallel to each other - One centimetre further apart and they collide rim face to rim face and the result probably isn't as catastrophic.

Looking at how rapidly Lewis was falling back relative to Max shortly before the incident:
https://i.imgur.com/G5iYZEk.png

it's totally within the realm of possibilities that they might not have touched, even with one tyre width more space:
https://i.imgur.com/e4hBoav.png

I personally don't believe that a collision was inevitable irregardless of Max' choice of line.
Interesting analysis, yeah you can’t entirely rule it out indeed. Have to agree with you on that.

Still you expect a lot from VER to avoid contact, whilst he technically complied with the regulations.
Last edited by Fnatic1 on Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

cooken
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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All this talk about trajectories and lines. We do all realize that at the point they crashed both drivers had plenty of scope for changing their trajectories using brake/throttle/steering? Lewis can just keep slowing down to tighten his line. It just means less exit speed. Too many posts here just assume he was going to go straight across the track for some reason, that it was set in stone from his corner entry. That is not correct.

Post collision path didn't tell us anything since the impact messed with Lewis' steering etc. Collision with Max was not guaranteed at all.

SmallSoldier
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Fnatic1 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:03 pm
SmallSoldier wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:51 pm
Fnatic1 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:27 pm


True, still the defending party should have left a car width on the outside, which they did not.

Verstappen was in this case the defending party, in this case on the outside. He left the car width, which he is obliged to.

Hamilton the attacking party who induced the understeer by taking too much speed into the corner at that kind of angle, hence the initiator of the contact and therefore at fault.
I just posted the video below on the the thread discussing the crash… I disagree with your point of view since in the onboard videos I haven’t seen Hamilton under steering, he is definitely going in to the corner too fast for the position of the car (just as I believe that Max was also going in too fast for the corner)… Neither car was on the optimal line when taking and entering the corner, neither was close to the left part of the track where you would start your cornering and it seemed that both turned later than even in their Qualifying laps.

Yes, Max left a car’s width on the inside… A car’s width considering a car that is entering the corner on the ideal line, not a car that is entering the corner from “the middle of the road” and he was aware that Hamilton was there even when he starts his initial turn in (to the point that he corrects the steering wheel and then turns in again).

I’m of the opinion that it is indeed a racing incident… An incident that both drivers could have avoided, but neither of them was willing to yield the corner and the collision was the result of it… Just as Hamilton could have broke earlier and yielded (he did brake into the corner)… Max could have also used the brakes instead of just lifting for the corner and could have taken a wider line into it.

I don’t think that only one driver is responsible for the incident in this case… And I’m positive that just as I have made up my mind in regards to the incident, you have also… But comparing the incident to the one in Austria is just wrong, because they are in essence different incidents.

That’s fair, of course everyone is entitled to their opinion as long as it’s supported.

I agree that both drivers could have avoided a collision, but that’s racing right?

I slightly deviate from your assessment as for the incident I blame HAM as he induced the understeer. VER left more than a car width which is in accordance with the regulations, hence not to blame for the contact.

However, this does not take away he could have avoided it by backing out before Copse corner.

HAM trajectory didn’t leave space for VER trajectory going around the outside. Even if VER would have taken a wider line, a collision would have been likely inevitable.

VER should have used more common sense especially with the championship lead he had. He should have conceded before Copse or even in Brooklands.
I don’t agree with the trajectory part… If we are basing our analysis of Hamilton’s trajectory based on the one he took “after” the contact, we will be dismissing the fact that the contact itself changes his trajectory and that he opens the steering wheel afterwards (knowing there is not a car beside him anymore)… The contact straightens his car.

In my opinion, if Verstappen would have taken a wider angle to the turn and reduced his speed (instead of just lifting), there wouldn’t have been a collision… Max though, most probably would have either yield afterwards to stay on the track or would have gone off track at the end of the turn as is the case for everyone that goes on the outside and haven’t completed the overtake or is ahead of the car on the inside.

Hoffman900
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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godlameroso wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:43 pm
This information gives greater insight as to what Verstappen might have felt inside the cockpit. It seems the front end of the car hit the barrier first. Then the car rotated at the last moment and led to a side and rear impact. I can't imagine how much something like that hurts, it has to shock your entire body from head to toe. Such an impact will push all the air out of your lungs, even if the car and the barrier dissipates the impact, you still feel it. Injuries can develop after an accident, I've seen enough injury lawyers on TV to remember the point.

It's very hard to prove intent from the information available unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on how you want to look at it. That would be the crux of any legal argument for any type of punishment.
51g is atypical for Formula 1, but not for NASCAR and Indy Car. That’s just virtue of them going Copse corner speeds (and faster), side-by-side, with no runoff, for 200 laps, week in / week out.

It doesn’t make it hurt any less, but a F1 car should allow a driver to walk away from that, which it did.

I don’t think there is any case law to back up rewarding injury claims in a professional sporting event, at least not here in the US.

A lawsuit brought by RedBull would likely be the end of them in F1, or at least Christian and Marko, and it still wouldn’t go anywhere.

Fnatic1
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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SmallSoldier wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:54 pm
Fnatic1 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:03 pm
SmallSoldier wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:51 pm


I just posted the video below on the the thread discussing the crash… I disagree with your point of view since in the onboard videos I haven’t seen Hamilton under steering, he is definitely going in to the corner too fast for the position of the car (just as I believe that Max was also going in too fast for the corner)… Neither car was on the optimal line when taking and entering the corner, neither was close to the left part of the track where you would start your cornering and it seemed that both turned later than even in their Qualifying laps.

Yes, Max left a car’s width on the inside… A car’s width considering a car that is entering the corner on the ideal line, not a car that is entering the corner from “the middle of the road” and he was aware that Hamilton was there even when he starts his initial turn in (to the point that he corrects the steering wheel and then turns in again).

I’m of the opinion that it is indeed a racing incident… An incident that both drivers could have avoided, but neither of them was willing to yield the corner and the collision was the result of it… Just as Hamilton could have broke earlier and yielded (he did brake into the corner)… Max could have also used the brakes instead of just lifting for the corner and could have taken a wider line into it.

I don’t think that only one driver is responsible for the incident in this case… And I’m positive that just as I have made up my mind in regards to the incident, you have also… But comparing the incident to the one in Austria is just wrong, because they are in essence different incidents.

That’s fair, of course everyone is entitled to their opinion as long as it’s supported.

I agree that both drivers could have avoided a collision, but that’s racing right?

I slightly deviate from your assessment as for the incident I blame HAM as he induced the understeer. VER left more than a car width which is in accordance with the regulations, hence not to blame for the contact.

However, this does not take away he could have avoided it by backing out before Copse corner.

HAM trajectory didn’t leave space for VER trajectory going around the outside. Even if VER would have taken a wider line, a collision would have been likely inevitable.

VER should have used more common sense especially with the championship lead he had. He should have conceded before Copse or even in Brooklands.
I don’t agree with the trajectory part… If we are basing our analysis of Hamilton’s trajectory based on the one he took “after” the contact, we will be dismissing the fact that the contact itself changes his trajectory and that he opens the steering wheel afterwards (knowing there is not a car beside him anymore)… The contact straightens his car.

In my opinion, if Verstappen would have taken a wider angle to the turn and reduced his speed (instead of just lifting), there wouldn’t have been a collision… Max though, most probably would have either yield afterwards to stay on the track or would have gone off track at the end of the turn as is the case for everyone that goes on the outside and haven’t completed the overtake or is ahead of the car on the inside.
I just feel like you demand a lot from the defending party to change his line, because the attacking party is braking too late or is taking too much speed into the corner.

The thing is VER gave the required space, HAM didn’t make use of it as he kinda misjudged it.

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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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With the Overtaking guide Allison speaks of, and the image a few pages back about overtaking rules, They both say Hamilton had the right to the corner. If thats the case, then its Lewis who needs to leave a cars width surely? Which he obviously does. And then on the exit, he is allowed to run Max off the track (like Max did to Charles in Austria a few years back)

So once they get to the braking point where Hamilton is rougly 95% alongside, its Max who needs to avoid Lewis. If the FIA's overtaking guide is as we believe it to be.
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SmallSoldier
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Just_a_fan
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Fnatic1 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:40 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:37 pm
Fnatic1 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:33 pm


HAM ended up on the outside kerb. Where was the space for VER then had HAM not initiated the contact? Yes, outside the track.
Irrelevant. It would have been for Max, trying to go around the outside, to have found space. It's fairly long standing practice that the inside driver has "the line" and is entitled to use the line. A driver trying to go outside of that driver is putting himself in a position to be pushed off track. Ergo, his problem.

Hence why, in Turn 1 in Spain, Hamilton backed off in order to a) avoid Max who was diving up the inside, and b) to avoid running off track and thus be required to follow the tortuous route back on track.
Not irrelevant.

The car on the inside did not respect the car on the outside, which he’s obliged to as the car on the outside was alongside and even slightly ahead.

Exactly why the penalty was issued to the car on the inside.
Irrelevant because Hamilton didn't end up off track - something you said he did do. Make your mind up what your discussing please.
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Jolle
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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NathanOlder wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:04 pm
With the Overtaking guide Allison speaks of, and the image a few pages back about overtaking rules, They both say Hamilton had the right to the corner. If thats the case, then its Lewis who needs to leave a cars width surely? Which he obviously does. And then on the exit, he is allowed to run Max off the track (like Max did to Charles in Austria a few years back)

So once they get to the braking point where Hamilton is rougly 95% alongside, its Max who needs to avoid Lewis. If the FIA's overtaking guide is as we believe it to be.
If it is, yes.

Ballsy but in his right. And that also explain why Mercedes is quite short and clear: no apology and a simple, “but these are the guidelines” and Redbull is almost screaming about disrespect, race bans and going to court.

These days people tend to believe the screamers and not facts.

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Hoffman900 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:55 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:43 pm
This information gives greater insight as to what Verstappen might have felt inside the cockpit. It seems the front end of the car hit the barrier first. Then the car rotated at the last moment and led to a side and rear impact. I can't imagine how much something like that hurts, it has to shock your entire body from head to toe. Such an impact will push all the air out of your lungs, even if the car and the barrier dissipates the impact, you still feel it. Injuries can develop after an accident, I've seen enough injury lawyers on TV to remember the point.

It's very hard to prove intent from the information available unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on how you want to look at it. That would be the crux of any legal argument for any type of punishment.
51g is atypical for Formula 1, but not for NASCAR and Indy Car. That’s just virtue of them going Copse corner speeds (and faster), side-by-side, with no runoff, for 200 laps, week in / week out.

It doesn’t make it hurt any less, but a F1 car should allow a driver to walk away from that, which it did.

I don’t think there is any case law to back up rewarding injury claims in a professional sporting event, at least not here in the US.

A lawsuit brought by RedBull would likely be the end of them in F1, or at least Christian and Marko, and it still wouldn’t go anywhere.
Grosjean's accident was something like 67g, IIRC. That was obviously fatal and resulted in hiom being turned in to jelly.

Oh, wait, that didn't happen did it?

The 51g thing was Horner trying to stir up emotions. And it worked.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Fnatic1 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:01 pm


I just feel like you demand a lot from the defending party to change his line, because the attacking party is braking too late or is taking too much speed into the corner.

The thing is VER gave the required space, HAM didn’t make use of it as he kinda misjudged it.
Ignoring the right or wrong, who should or shouldn't, etc. Here's a simple question: who had most to lose from a touch in a high speed corner? The guy on the inside or the guy on the outside?

It comes down to the maxim "live to fight another day". The sensible thing to do is stay away from the car on the inside. Turning in on him "because I'm in the right" just results in a DNF.

Hamilton had the line in the corner earlier in the lap - exactly the same situation as in the Copse incident. And Hamilton knew that turning in was going to have him in the gravel on the outside of the corner. So he gave lots of space. Not just "a car's width" but most of the track.

Come the same situation a few seconds later, Max did what? He turned in regardless of where Hamilton might have been. That's just knuckleheaded stupidity. That's "I'm coming, get out of the way". That gets you in the gravel / wall.

Irrespective of what Hamilton did, Max should have assumed the worst case outcome.

He has now seen a significant lead reduced by 25 points. It would have been 26 points if Perez hadn't played the good team mate for him.

That's the simple fact - it doesn't matter how right you are if you have more to lose in the argument.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

LaplacesDemon
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:25 pm
Hoffman900 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:55 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:43 pm
This information gives greater insight as to what Verstappen might have felt inside the cockpit. It seems the front end of the car hit the barrier first. Then the car rotated at the last moment and led to a side and rear impact. I can't imagine how much something like that hurts, it has to shock your entire body from head to toe. Such an impact will push all the air out of your lungs, even if the car and the barrier dissipates the impact, you still feel it. Injuries can develop after an accident, I've seen enough injury lawyers on TV to remember the point.

It's very hard to prove intent from the information available unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on how you want to look at it. That would be the crux of any legal argument for any type of punishment.
51g is atypical for Formula 1, but not for NASCAR and Indy Car. That’s just virtue of them going Copse corner speeds (and faster), side-by-side, with no runoff, for 200 laps, week in / week out.

It doesn’t make it hurt any less, but a F1 car should allow a driver to walk away from that, which it did.

I don’t think there is any case law to back up rewarding injury claims in a professional sporting event, at least not here in the US.

A lawsuit brought by RedBull would likely be the end of them in F1, or at least Christian and Marko, and it still wouldn’t go anywhere.
Grosjean's accident was something like 67g, IIRC. That was obviously fatal and resulted in hiom being turned in to jelly.

Oh, wait, that didn't happen did it?

The 51g thing was Horner trying to stir up emotions. And it worked.
I agree. The ADR accelerometers are solidly mounted to the survival cell and as such read much higher accelerations compared to what the driver actually experiences.

Had VER actually experienced 51g for any considerable duration his head would have been thrown clear out of the car.

Jolle
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Fnatic1 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:01 pm
SmallSoldier wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:54 pm
Fnatic1 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:03 pm


That’s fair, of course everyone is entitled to their opinion as long as it’s supported.

I agree that both drivers could have avoided a collision, but that’s racing right?

I slightly deviate from your assessment as for the incident I blame HAM as he induced the understeer. VER left more than a car width which is in accordance with the regulations, hence not to blame for the contact.

However, this does not take away he could have avoided it by backing out before Copse corner.

HAM trajectory didn’t leave space for VER trajectory going around the outside. Even if VER would have taken a wider line, a collision would have been likely inevitable.

VER should have used more common sense especially with the championship lead he had. He should have conceded before Copse or even in Brooklands.
I don’t agree with the trajectory part… If we are basing our analysis of Hamilton’s trajectory based on the one he took “after” the contact, we will be dismissing the fact that the contact itself changes his trajectory and that he opens the steering wheel afterwards (knowing there is not a car beside him anymore)… The contact straightens his car.

In my opinion, if Verstappen would have taken a wider angle to the turn and reduced his speed (instead of just lifting), there wouldn’t have been a collision… Max though, most probably would have either yield afterwards to stay on the track or would have gone off track at the end of the turn as is the case for everyone that goes on the outside and haven’t completed the overtake or is ahead of the car on the inside.
I just feel like you demand a lot from the defending party to change his line, because the attacking party is braking too late or is taking too much speed into the corner.

The thing is VER gave the required space, HAM didn’t make use of it as he kinda misjudged it.
Just out of interest, have ever driven on track to the limit or any racing experience? The way you build your arguments, suggest you’re unaware of some things…

Fnatic1
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:33 pm
Fnatic1 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:01 pm


I just feel like you demand a lot from the defending party to change his line, because the attacking party is braking too late or is taking too much speed into the corner.

The thing is VER gave the required space, HAM didn’t make use of it as he kinda misjudged it.
Ignoring the right or wrong, who should or shouldn't, etc. Here's a simple question: who had most to lose from a touch in a high speed corner? The guy on the inside or the guy on the outside?

It comes down to the maxim "live to fight another day". The sensible thing to do is stay away from the car on the inside. Turning in on him "because I'm in the right" just results in a DNF.

Hamilton had the line in the corner earlier in the lap - exactly the same situation as in the Copse incident. And Hamilton knew that turning in was going to have him in the gravel on the outside of the corner. So he gave lots of space. Not just "a car's width" but most of the track.

Come the same situation a few seconds later, Max did what? He turned in regardless of where Hamilton might have been. That's just knuckleheaded stupidity. That's "I'm coming, get out of the way". That gets you in the gravel / wall.

Irrespective of what Hamilton did, Max should have assumed the worst case outcome.

He has now seen a significant lead reduced by 25 points. It would have been 26 points if Perez hadn't played the good team mate for him.

That's the simple fact - it doesn't matter how right you are if you have more to lose in the argument.
I agree that VER approach to this race was not the right one, considering his lead in the championship. I never said anything otherwise.

This doesn’t mean there’s someone more to blame for the crash, which we are discussing.

ab_f1
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Hoffman900 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:55 pm

A lawsuit brought by RedBull would likely be the end of them in F1, or at least Christian and Marko, and it still wouldn’t go anywhere.
There will never be a lawsuit. Redbull gets more media mileage talking about lawsuit instead of bringing it.
A lawsuit would actually expose them more and bring lot more negative coverage.