Could the threat of litigation effect F1?

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Gettingonabit
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Could the threat of litigation effect F1?

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Obviously this topic is directed at the threat to litigate against "as yet unknown" as a result of the incident between MV and LH at Silverstone.
As my forum name might indicate I've been around a while and have followed all kinds of motor sport since my late teens. My interest in F1 has been unbroken since the early days, that of Moss, Clark, etc. In all that time I've not heard of litigation being involved in the act of motor racing, apart from the death of Senna at the 1994 San Marino GP.
What I remember from that incident was a total farce that went on for years and basically got nowhere. The only gain going to the legal teams of very expensive lawyers.
My recollection is also that Adrian Newey was one of the accused at that time, maybe he could advise Horner and Marco on the wisdom of involving the courts in such a 'racing incident'.

Is there any real chance of Red Bulls threatened litigation being more successful? (genuine question)

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El Scorchio
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Re: Could the threat of litigation effect F1?

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I genuinely can’t see it sticking at all. It’s not like everyone even unanimously thinks the incident was Hamilton’s fault.

No-one aside from a few people with vested interests think it was deliberate at all.

Risk to drivers and cars is a risk of motorsport and something all the teams and drivers accept when joining the sport.

Everyone signed up the the budget cap rules.

Aside from all that which should really be enough in itself, the FIA and FOM will do everything to stop this happening as it opens a huge can of worms with people litigating for damages with every contact incident that happens in future.

I don’t really even think RBR were serious.

Jolle
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Re: Could the threat of litigation effect F1?

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It feels that RedBull is “floating” around ideas as a way to destabilise Hamilton. The FIA has its own appeal court and any attempt to go around that will be dismissed with the first question: did you follow the agreed procedure of the contract (teams have contracts with the FIA/FOM which states a way to appeal).

The difference with Senna’s death was that was a criminal case from the Italian prosecutors (I believe this is standerd in Italy in case of an accident)

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nzjrs
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Re: Could the threat of litigation effect F1?

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The threat of litigation and actual litigation are different things.

I remember for example that damage from the loose manhole covers at Sochi / Monaco / I forgot in the last years was paid to the teams. I would presume behind the scenes this was a "threat of litigation" but probbably between the Teams legal departments and the FIA/FOM/promoter/circuit/insurer. Compensation is never paid willingly!

We probbably don't hear about the threat of litigation very often because it's the wrong kind of PR. This is just a different kind of PR

Just_a_fan
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Re: Could the threat of litigation effect F1?

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Gettingonabit wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:32 pm
Obviously this topic is directed at the threat to litigate against "as yet unknown" as a result of the incident between MV and LH at Silverstone.
As my forum name might indicate I've been around a while and have followed all kinds of motor sport since my late teens. My interest in F1 has been unbroken since the early days, that of Moss, Clark, etc. In all that time I've not heard of litigation being involved in the act of motor racing, apart from the death of Senna at the 1994 San Marino GP.
What I remember from that incident was a total farce that went on for years and basically got nowhere. The only gain going to the legal teams of very expensive lawyers.
My recollection is also that Adrian Newey was one of the accused at that time, maybe he could advise Horner and Marco on the wisdom of involving the courts in such a 'racing incident'.

Is there any real chance of Red Bulls threatened litigation being more successful? (genuine question)
The legal action following Senna's death was due purely to the Italian legal system, not because there was an indication of wrong doing by the team. There is some particular issue in Italian law that meant the team were potentially liable.

As I remember, there was talking of boycotts etc. after the threats of legal action. Eventually, it all just "went away".
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Marty_Y
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Re: Could the threat of litigation effect F1?

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If there is litigation (which I personally doubt there will be), I hope Red Bull's legal representative makes a better case than some of the arguments put forward in the race thread by the Max fans because if not it will be laughed out of court.

I mean no disrespect to Max fans, we all see things from are own point of view and are we are all guilty of unconscious bias.
Last edited by Marty_Y on Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Big Tea
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Re: Could the threat of litigation effect F1?

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I seem to remember, (but may mis-remember so check me)that this came up back in the Ecclestone days, and he said something like, in my words, they (FIA F1) do not have to issue a licence or entry to anyone automatically, and he left it at that. The implied threat being that if anyone did, they would not race again.
How can I learn Braille for 'Danger do not touch'

Jolle
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Re: Could the threat of litigation effect F1?

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Big Tea wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:05 pm
I seem to remember, (but may mis-remember so check me)that this came up back in the Ecclestone days, and he said something like, in my words, they (FIA F1) do not have to issue a licence or entry to anyone automatically, and he left it at that. The implied threat being that if anyone did, they would not race again.
It's not only a breach of confidence (in the stewards and appeal rules of the FIA) but also a breach of contract (what will state that in a case of an appeal you have to first follow the appeal rules).

of course every team knows this.

PhillipM
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Re: Could the threat of litigation effect F1?

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Marty_Y wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:57 pm
If there is litigation (which I personally doubt there will be), I hope Red Bull's legal representative makes a better case than some of the arguments put forward in the race thread by the Max fans because if not it will be laughed out of court.

I mean no disrespect to Max fans, we all see things from are own point of view and are we are all guilty of unconscious bias.
Can you imagine the entire s***tshow of legal claims that would come Max's way if it did somehow manage to go to court and stick, given the sheer amount of similar or worse crashes he's instigated for years? RB would be digging their own graves :lol:

cheeRS
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Re: Could the threat of litigation effect F1?

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PhillipM wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 2:22 pm
Marty_Y wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:57 pm
If there is litigation (which I personally doubt there will be), I hope Red Bull's legal representative makes a better case than some of the arguments put forward in the race thread by the Max fans because if not it will be laughed out of court.

I mean no disrespect to Max fans, we all see things from are own point of view and are we are all guilty of unconscious bias.
Can you imagine the entire s***tshow of legal claims that would come Max's way if it did somehow manage to go to court and stick, given the sheer amount of similar or worse crashes he's instigated for years? RB would be digging their own graves :lol:
Came here to see this post :lol:

The irony of this idea is not lost on me, what with an increasingly infamous driver that has never won a single seater championship once known by the nickname "crashtappen". 8)

the EDGE
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Re: Could the threat of litigation effect F1?

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When Redbull talk of employing lawyers, I believe they mean to take it to the FIA appeals procedure. Not a civil court

It’s not money they are after, it’s a harsher penalties for Lewis Hamilton. No civil court in the world can take points away from Lewis

I think it’s worth noting that in other sports… say football, referees (stewards in F1s case) have made many a bad decision with huge consequences. i’m not aware of anything like that ever going to court. As other have said, teams sign contracts to abide by governing bodies decisions

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El Scorchio
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Re: Could the threat of litigation effect F1?

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I genuinely don’t see what level headed person with any real knowledge of motorsport would judge it warranted a harsher penalty than it already got when compared to other similar incidents.

Jolle
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Re: Could the threat of litigation effect F1?

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the EDGE wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:13 pm
When Redbull talk of employing lawyers, I believe they mean to take it to the FIA appeals procedure. Not a civil court

It’s not money they are after, it’s a harsher penalties for Lewis Hamilton. No civil court in the world can take points away from Lewis

I think it’s worth noting that in other sports… say football, referees (stewards in F1s case) have made many a bad decision with huge consequences. i’m not aware of anything like that ever going to court. As other have said, teams sign contracts to abide by governing bodies decisions
was a bit late for that, you have to appeal within 24 hours of the penalty.

If the story came from Marko, it was all about building the narrative. He knows that going to court isn't going to help and talking trough a dodgy Austrian tabloid leaves enough deniability, while knowing that every big news cycle is going to pick it up.

the EDGE
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Re: Could the threat of litigation effect F1?

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Jolle wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:21 pm
the EDGE wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:13 pm
When Redbull talk of employing lawyers, I believe they mean to take it to the FIA appeals procedure. Not a civil court

It’s not money they are after, it’s a harsher penalties for Lewis Hamilton. No civil court in the world can take points away from Lewis

I think it’s worth noting that in other sports… say football, referees (stewards in F1s case) have made many a bad decision with huge consequences. i’m not aware of anything like that ever going to court. As other have said, teams sign contracts to abide by governing bodies decisions
was a bit late for that, you have to appeal within 24 hours of the penalty.

If the story came from Marko, it was all about building the narrative. He knows that going to court isn't going to help and talking trough a dodgy Austrian tabloid leaves enough deniability, while knowing that every big news cycle is going to pick it up.
Not according to RB, this is what they posted on their website today
Given the severity of the incident and the lenient penalty, we are reviewing all data and have the right to request a review. We are therefore still looking at the evidence and considering all of our sporting options
https://www.redbull.com/int-en/redbullr ... gp-debrief

Jolle
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Re: Could the threat of litigation effect F1?

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the EDGE wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:30 pm
Jolle wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:21 pm
the EDGE wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:13 pm
When Redbull talk of employing lawyers, I believe they mean to take it to the FIA appeals procedure. Not a civil court

It’s not money they are after, it’s a harsher penalties for Lewis Hamilton. No civil court in the world can take points away from Lewis

I think it’s worth noting that in other sports… say football, referees (stewards in F1s case) have made many a bad decision with huge consequences. i’m not aware of anything like that ever going to court. As other have said, teams sign contracts to abide by governing bodies decisions
was a bit late for that, you have to appeal within 24 hours of the penalty.

If the story came from Marko, it was all about building the narrative. He knows that going to court isn't going to help and talking trough a dodgy Austrian tabloid leaves enough deniability, while knowing that every big news cycle is going to pick it up.
Not according to RB, this is what they posted on their website today
Given the severity of the incident and the lenient penalty, we are reviewing all data and have the right to request a review. We are therefore still looking at the evidence and considering all of our sporting options
https://www.redbull.com/int-en/redbullr ... gp-debrief
pfffff....
what could new evidence bring to light? from "predominantly" to "wholly" or "completely"?

this is pure politics and has noting to do with what actual is happening or will happen.