2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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dans79
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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El Scorchio wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:19 pm
Sieper wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 5:58 pm
You know what, we can talk long about it or short (more then long enough). I had several sleepless nights over this, that is how upsetting it was to me...
If that's genuinely true, then I'd seriously recommend a little step back or a breather. It's ONLY sport and entertainment. It shouldn't be giving anyone sleepless nights.
I second this!
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Sieper
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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I love to watch, but yes, this is very hard on me. Good to see Max seems unphased, that does help me accepting it a bit more. But you know what. It will happen again now and I think rather sooner then later.
Controversy does not have a short memory.

paulo_f1
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Sieper wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 5:58 pm
Only if he left the hyperbole at the end out. This to me was more than just a contact, there was intent, Lewis never seemed out of control of his car, or at least he had enough control to hit Max on the rear wheel whilst himself being not really in the turn yet (car still stable) while Max already was (car relatively unstable). The outcome of such cases is predictable (at least in the manner executed) and it did happen in that way also.
It's an opinion, based on reviewing the thread on here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=29909 with frame by frame analysis, and from following formula 1 for over 35 years (yeah I'm old). It's also one shared by most of the experienced F1 observers, analysts and drivers.

The onboards & analysis show Lewis tried to get out of it, braking before the impact, whereas Max came in from a much tighter line than normal (which is why Lewis was even tighter & couldn't make the apex), taking a line that gave little consideration for how he'd squeezed Hamilton going into the corner.

It also all took place in under a second at 180 mph, with both cars moving around a lot, but to me only one driver tried to avoid an accident & one assumed the other would get out of the way...

As for hyperbole, you may need to look up the definition. I'm trying to talk about reasoned analysis of the incident & the hyperbole from Horner, Verstappen & Matteschitz in the Red Bull thread. You seem to be arguing about knowing the intent of a driver, good luck proving that, its pure conjecture on your part, as only Hamilton can know his intentions as he entered that corner!

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langedweil
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Apparently there's no change in verdict .. can't link Twitter though for some reason.
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zibby43
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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The stewards will not re-open the Silverstone crash.

“ The Verstappen/Hamilton incident will not get a review. The stewards have assessed that there is no significant additional evidence to punish Lewis Hamilton more severely after Red Bull's review request.

Now focus on the Hungarian Grand Prix, I think.#F1”


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langedweil
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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zibby43 wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:33 pm
The stewards will not re-open the Silverstone crash.

“ The Verstappen/Hamilton incident will not get a review. The stewards have assessed that there is no significant additional evidence to punish Lewis Hamilton more severely after Red Bull's review request.

Now focus on the Hungarian Grand Prix, I think.#F1”

https://twitter.com/erikvharen/status/1 ... 28230?s=21
The Verstappen/Hamilton incident will not get a tail. The stewards have assessed that there is no significant additional evidence to punish Lewis Hamilton more severely after Red Bull's review request.

Now focus on the Hungarian Grand Prix, I think.
HuggaWugga !

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Sieper
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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paulo_f1 wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:28 pm
Sieper wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 5:58 pm
Only if he left the hyperbole at the end out. This to me was more than just a contact, there was intent, Lewis never seemed out of control of his car, or at least he had enough control to hit Max on the rear wheel whilst himself being not really in the turn yet (car still stable) while Max already was (car relatively unstable). The outcome of such cases is predictable (at least in the manner executed) and it did happen in that way also.
It's an opinion, based on reviewing the thread on here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=29909 with frame by frame analysis, and from following formula 1 for over 35 years (yeah I'm old). It's also one shared by most of the experienced F1 observers, analysts and drivers.

The onboards & analysis show Lewis tried to get out of it, braking before the impact, whereas Max came in from a much tighter line than normal (which is why Lewis was even tighter & couldn't make the apex), taking a line that gave little consideration for how he'd squeezed Hamilton going into the corner.

It also all took place in under a second at 180 mph, with both cars moving around a lot, but to me only one driver tried to avoid an accident & one assumed the other would get out of the way...

As for hyperbole, you may need to look up the definition. I'm trying to talk about reasoned analysis of the incident & the hyperbole from Horner, Verstappen & Matteschitz in the Red Bull thread. You seem to be arguing about knowing the intent of a driver, good luck proving that, its pure conjecture on your part, as only Hamilton can know his intentions as he entered that corner!
You cannot call everyone that disagrees with you a tin foil hat, that surely is hyperbole. Also the reason why it is hard to take what happened, you cannot even speak your mind about it. I cannot prove any intent, no one ever can but the trajectory and not being out of control has me convinced it wasn’t an incident.
Controversy does not have a short memory.

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hollus
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Max, literally, said he was "opening the corner".
https://www.racefans.net/2021/07/29/ver ... for-crash/
But as soon as he commits to the inside and is getting alongside me, I open up the corner and then I’m going to leave him space
But I did give him the space and then I just opened up my corner
The videos are there for everyone to see and judge for himself.
I would like to see a paleontologist.

paulo_f1
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Hi Sieper, sorry, I'm not trying to offend you & I don't call everyone who disagrees with me a tinfoil hat!

You're of course entitled to your opinion, but, if you share it online, you have to be prepared for it to be discussed, pulled apart & even derided.

I happen to think its poor analysis, based on you being too close & a big supporter of Max. It's the sort of knee jerk myopic nonsense that is awash on social media. I'm no Hamilton fan, but you're accusing one of the cleanest & fairest drivers in the history of the sport, certainly in recent times, of engineering a deliberate accident that could have killed himself and a competitor. Based on you being able to ascertain his intent from an in car video!

I've no wish to make you look stupid, or be rude to you, that's not my intention. However, you need to take a step back and review the accident, plus what you're saying about being able to see his intent.

Think about it, if it's deliberate:

- why would he do it at Copse, the fastest corner on the F1 calendar?
- why not at Brooklands when Max dived bombed back across the kerbs when Lewis was in front?
- why back out at the first corner when he was alongside & could of stood his ground, these are both far slower corners, where he could have engineered a tipping style accident with far less risk to himself?
- why not do it in the sprint race, if it went wrong and he went out there he could at least come back though the field in the main race?
- why brake at Copse, when Max turns in more, he'd be safer on a wheel to wheel impact, he's personally more likely to go end over end if they ride up over each other?

Cannonballer
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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hollus wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 7:11 pm
Max, literally, said he was "opening the corner".
https://www.racefans.net/2021/07/29/ver ... for-crash/
But as soon as he commits to the inside and is getting alongside me, I open up the corner and then I’m going to leave him space
But I did give him the space and then I just opened up my corner
The videos are there for everyone to see and judge for himself.
From the Race Fans article:
"Verstappen admitted he was unaware the stewards had not placed the blame entirely at his rival’s feet.

“Honestly I didn’t even read the statement I just heard the penalty,” he said when asked by RaceFans for his view on the stewards’ reasoning. “I found already that wasn’t enough.”

How is it possible that he hasn't read the stewards statement? Nevermind his comments regarding the past incident, he is going to remain ignorant about the rules on passing and how the stewards apportion(ed) blame for an incident going forward?
Wazari wrote: There's a saying in Japan, He might be higher than testicles on a giraffe...........

paulo_f1
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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There's a saying in England; "the brass neck on him"....

To quote Max “I fought hard, I defended hard, but not aggressive, because if it would have been aggressive I could have pushed him or squeezed him into the inside wall,”

He says after squeezing him into the pit wall and then moving to the middle of the track, when he'd normally be to the far left for the optimum Copse line. I hope it's bluster, or I can see a few more "no compromise" type incidents happening soon if Lewis chooses not to back off again...

wesley123
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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hollus wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 7:11 pm
Max, literally, said he was "opening the corner".
https://www.racefans.net/2021/07/29/ver ... for-crash/
But as soon as he commits to the inside and is getting alongside me, I open up the corner and then I’m going to leave him space
But I did give him the space and then I just opened up my corner
The videos are there for everyone to see and judge for himself.
“Like I said we are racing hard and of course that corner is very fast. But I don’t know how I have a percentage in that fault.

“He goes for that move, he commits to the move, of course I’m going to make it difficult for him to make the move."

That's kinda admitting fault, to be honest.

"Under a long-standing precedent, the consequences of an incident are not taken into consideration when deciding on the severity of a penalty. However Verstappen believes this should change, stating it would be “common sense” to take the ramifications of collisions into account."

This is possibly, but not likely considering the stuff Horner said, the dumbest thing I have read in the past week. The sole idea of penalizing based on outcome is dumb, and so open to interpretation, that it can't possibly be done.

He probably hasn't realized that Perez, after getting penalized twice, still finished ahead of Leclerc. Or how Lewis damaged his front wing, subsequently lost time, and had to chase Max down which caused his error. By his logic both he, as well as Perez himself aren't properly punished.
Of course the second one is absurd, since it was Lewis' own fault. But since we are judging on the outcome, and the outcome was bad for Lewis, but nothing has happened to Max, he logically should have been penalized for that.

“When you then commit on the inside like he did and not back out, expecting you can do the same speed on that angle that I had on the outside, you are going to, of course, crash into me."

You'd expect a professional racing driver to reflect on the incident. But from this quote alone it is clear they have not done so, and immediately went to their typical childish behavior.

"Verstappen dismissed claims he has been too “aggressive” with some of his racing manoeuvres in Formula 1, and pointed out he does not have any penalty points on his licence."

There's literally a video from F1 themselves of moments where Verstappen clashed with other drivers. He's the sole driver on the grid to have that, long-standing rules literally had to be clarified because of Max' behavior on track. That he now has 0 points on his license because he drove in no-mans land for the past 12 months changes nothing on that.

“I think I’m a hard driver. I race hard"

But he then proceeds to say that. I wonder if the interviewer informed him that that is something that would qualify as "agressive"

It would suit him if he worked a bit on his self-reflection.
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender

i70q7m7ghw
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Red Bull submitted four pieces of evidence, which were all slides created by the team, to show:
  • GPS data available to them of both Hamilton and Verstappen’s car
  • GPS data drawing “various alleged comparisons" with the line taken by Hamilton when passing Charles Leclerc for the lead later in the race at the same corner
  • Alleged lap simulations of the incident
  • What was described as a “re-enactment” of Hamilton’s lap one line at Silverstone based on a lap allegedly driven by Alex Albon
The final piece of evidence was gathered during a filming day the team conducted with their reserve driver at Silverstone last Thursday.

After looking at the information presented to them, the stewards deemed it did not qualify as a “significant and relevant new element”.
Holy crap, so read this from the stewards:
The Stewards note, with some concern, certain allegations [which have not been made public] made in the Competitor's above letter. Such allegations may or may not have been relevant to the Stewards if the Petition for Review had been granted. The Stewards may have addressed these allegations directly in any decision that would have followed. The Petition having been dismissed, the Stewards make no comments on those allegations.
It sounds like Red Bull wrote a letter accusing Hamilton of a "crash-gate" type offence... :wtf:

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GOAT
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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So nothing standing in the way of Gasly committing to a couple of desperate overtaking moves on Lewis- or would Tsunoda do better?

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godlameroso
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Sieper wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:59 pm
paulo_f1 wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:28 pm
Sieper wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 5:58 pm
Only if he left the hyperbole at the end out. This to me was more than just a contact, there was intent, Lewis never seemed out of control of his car, or at least he had enough control to hit Max on the rear wheel whilst himself being not really in the turn yet (car still stable) while Max already was (car relatively unstable). The outcome of such cases is predictable (at least in the manner executed) and it did happen in that way also.
It's an opinion, based on reviewing the thread on here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=29909 with frame by frame analysis, and from following formula 1 for over 35 years (yeah I'm old). It's also one shared by most of the experienced F1 observers, analysts and drivers.

The onboards & analysis show Lewis tried to get out of it, braking before the impact, whereas Max came in from a much tighter line than normal (which is why Lewis was even tighter & couldn't make the apex), taking a line that gave little consideration for how he'd squeezed Hamilton going into the corner.

It also all took place in under a second at 180 mph, with both cars moving around a lot, but to me only one driver tried to avoid an accident & one assumed the other would get out of the way...

As for hyperbole, you may need to look up the definition. I'm trying to talk about reasoned analysis of the incident & the hyperbole from Horner, Verstappen & Matteschitz in the Red Bull thread. You seem to be arguing about knowing the intent of a driver, good luck proving that, its pure conjecture on your part, as only Hamilton can know his intentions as he entered that corner!
You cannot call everyone that disagrees with you a tin foil hat, that surely is hyperbole. Also the reason why it is hard to take what happened, you cannot even speak your mind about it. I cannot prove any intent, no one ever can but the trajectory and not being out of control has me convinced it wasn’t an incident.
The thing is, it is a very close split decision, if you try to think about doing something in that situation, you'd never be able to pull it off at that speed. Your mind has to be dead set before you even put your car there, action follows intent in such a circumstance. It's too fast to even think about at that speed.

I can agree that Hamilton could have yielded the corner, and so could have Max, neither did, but only one walked away from it. The only deliberate action was that neither wanted to yield the corner, as painful as it was, in the end no one got seriously hurt.

I think however we cannot allow such an incident to set a precedent for future actions. I think it was too close to call, and the thing that saved Hamilton's bacon was the fact he did not make any erratic moves in his steering, he applied enough lock. By the time Hamilton realized he was going to collide he could not react fast enough to adjust.

The could haves are very frightening, and at the same time, we have to understand that those are sentiments based on things that did not happen. There is a difference between emotions and sentiments, emotions are based on real events, sentiments are based on what you perceive to be. The tricky part is that sentiments can create emotions, but they're based on fictions and not real. If we only focus on the real, nothing bad happened, and we simply have to trust that Verstappen will be able to adapt should another situation as this arise.

Just like he has faith in his team, we have to have faith in him as well.
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