Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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_cerber1
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Can anyone comment on this?

LaplacesDemon
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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It is a very vague statement so I am not sure there is anything worth commenting on.

The counter claim regarding Merc plenum cooling appears to have a bit more substance yet at the same time it is something that can could in theory be immediately verified by FIA by inspecting engine telemetry data.

My guess is both teams are just playing battleships.

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RZS10
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Probably an early summer break article.

Ignore those 'news aggregate' accounts and go to the source

The article basically claims there are stories going around the paddock and when reading between the lines the competitors supposedly claim those things , there's completely uncredited 'quotes' and the article itself even contradicts itself.
Between the lines the two title rivals and their allies scatter stories that are supposed to explain the puzzling turnaround in the power duel. There is probably a bit of truth in both versions that are circulating through the paddock. But it is difficult to determine from the outside how much poetry, wishful thinking or politics is involved.

From the Mercedes corner you can hear that Honda has been slowed down by a directive of the FIA. Allegedly there has been a disagreement about how the Japanese operate their energy management for four months.

When asked, the FIA did not know anything about a measure against Honda. Which doesn't have to mean a lot. Corrections to the engine are usually not made public. The technicians of the association discuss this directly with the relevant manufacturer. Not even the competition finds out about it.
A directive would be known to all teams and most importantly to the FIA and something like that would have leaked out already, at the same time they claim that a directive could slow down one engine without the others knowing.


Another explanation [for the change in the top speed pecking order] comes from the orbit of Red Bull. Ferrari is believed to also be on the trail of this theory. Allegedly, Mercedes cools the air collector (plenum) in certain phases in order to have more power available. Before a qualifying round or the start of the race, this would be allowed, but only with archaic methods. You can cool down the plenum with dry ice. But the effect evaporates relatively quickly.

Systematic cooling of the plenum would at least be a gray area or not allowed at all. "Especially if you support the cooler air in the collector for a short time by injecting more gasoline," it's being said by the Red Bull side.

People became suspicious when Lewis Hamilton caught up with Verstappen every time before the Copse corner at Silverstone with a considerable excess of power, which ultimately led to the accident. Mercedes explained this with the fact that the Honda switched to harvesting at this point. The defending champion denies the accusation of increased performance via any cooling measures.
Note the consistent use of "allegedly".

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Zynerji
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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PhillipM wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 11:29 pm
You can scavenge blowdown pressure with barely any difference in the backpressure. What's more, flowing exhaust gas through both the turbine and the wastegates is always going to flow more air to atmosphere than just the wastegates alone, so that would drop the pressure more than using a diverter setup.

The MGU-H would never be driving the turbine 'faster than the exhaust stream' because by definition spinning the turbo up would be pushing a shedload of mass flow through the compressor and the PU.
Yes, but the Blow-off Valve opening during this effect would NOT push a "shedload" of mass flow through the PU...

PhillipM
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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In which case why are you running the MGU-H and wasting energy? :wtf:

Also any blow off valves on these engines - if anyone is actually using them, which I don't believe they are - have to recirculate the air - all air entering the compressor must exit the engine exhaust.

saviour stivala
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Blow-off valve/s are not used by the present formula one power unites, because even if a recirculating system to satisfy the intake air rules is used it’s still a wasteful system to use, instead they throttle the compressor.

zibby43
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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RZS10 wrote:
Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:22 pm
Probably an early summer break article.

Ignore those 'news aggregate' accounts and go to the source

The article basically claims there are stories going around the paddock and when reading between the lines the competitors supposedly claim those things , there's completely uncredited 'quotes' and the article itself even contradicts itself.
Between the lines the two title rivals and their allies scatter stories that are supposed to explain the puzzling turnaround in the power duel. There is probably a bit of truth in both versions that are circulating through the paddock. But it is difficult to determine from the outside how much poetry, wishful thinking or politics is involved.

From the Mercedes corner you can hear that Honda has been slowed down by a directive of the FIA. Allegedly there has been a disagreement about how the Japanese operate their energy management for four months.

When asked, the FIA did not know anything about a measure against Honda. Which doesn't have to mean a lot. Corrections to the engine are usually not made public. The technicians of the association discuss this directly with the relevant manufacturer. Not even the competition finds out about it.
A directive would be known to all teams and most importantly to the FIA and something like that would have leaked out already, at the same time they claim that a directive could slow down one engine without the others knowing.


Another explanation [for the change in the top speed pecking order] comes from the orbit of Red Bull. Ferrari is believed to also be on the trail of this theory. Allegedly, Mercedes cools the air collector (plenum) in certain phases in order to have more power available. Before a qualifying round or the start of the race, this would be allowed, but only with archaic methods. You can cool down the plenum with dry ice. But the effect evaporates relatively quickly.

Systematic cooling of the plenum would at least be a gray area or not allowed at all. "Especially if you support the cooler air in the collector for a short time by injecting more gasoline," it's being said by the Red Bull side.

People became suspicious when Lewis Hamilton caught up with Verstappen every time before the Copse corner at Silverstone with a considerable excess of power, which ultimately led to the accident. Mercedes explained this with the fact that the Honda switched to harvesting at this point. The defending champion denies the accusation of increased performance via any cooling measures.
Note the consistent use of "allegedly".
Wasn’t dry ice in the plenum an old rumor associated with Ferrari when they were putting those bags on top of the car pre-quali and pre-race?

That seems like a recycled rumor, unless Merc have learned from Ferrari on that front re: successful implementation.

ryaan2904
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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zibby43 wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 7:18 pm
RZS10 wrote:
Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:22 pm
Probably an early summer break article.

Ignore those 'news aggregate' accounts and go to the source

The article basically claims there are stories going around the paddock and when reading between the lines the competitors supposedly claim those things , there's completely uncredited 'quotes' and the article itself even contradicts itself.
Between the lines the two title rivals and their allies scatter stories that are supposed to explain the puzzling turnaround in the power duel. There is probably a bit of truth in both versions that are circulating through the paddock. But it is difficult to determine from the outside how much poetry, wishful thinking or politics is involved.

From the Mercedes corner you can hear that Honda has been slowed down by a directive of the FIA. Allegedly there has been a disagreement about how the Japanese operate their energy management for four months.

When asked, the FIA did not know anything about a measure against Honda. Which doesn't have to mean a lot. Corrections to the engine are usually not made public. The technicians of the association discuss this directly with the relevant manufacturer. Not even the competition finds out about it.
A directive would be known to all teams and most importantly to the FIA and something like that would have leaked out already, at the same time they claim that a directive could slow down one engine without the others knowing.


Another explanation [for the change in the top speed pecking order] comes from the orbit of Red Bull. Ferrari is believed to also be on the trail of this theory. Allegedly, Mercedes cools the air collector (plenum) in certain phases in order to have more power available. Before a qualifying round or the start of the race, this would be allowed, but only with archaic methods. You can cool down the plenum with dry ice. But the effect evaporates relatively quickly.

Systematic cooling of the plenum would at least be a gray area or not allowed at all. "Especially if you support the cooler air in the collector for a short time by injecting more gasoline," it's being said by the Red Bull side.

People became suspicious when Lewis Hamilton caught up with Verstappen every time before the Copse corner at Silverstone with a considerable excess of power, which ultimately led to the accident. Mercedes explained this with the fact that the Honda switched to harvesting at this point. The defending champion denies the accusation of increased performance via any cooling measures.
Note the consistent use of "allegedly".
Wasn’t dry ice in the plenum an old rumor associated with Ferrari when they were putting those bags on top of the car pre-quali and pre-race?

That seems like a recycled rumor, unless Merc have learned from Ferrari on that front re: successful implementation.
Well... a Ferrari engine guy did go to mercedes... :?
CFD Eyes of Sauron

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_cerber1
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Quite interesting about the Mercedes engine.
Through a translator.
https://www.funoanalisitecnica.com/2021 ... sh_ce=6347

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Juzh
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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_cerber1 wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 8:30 am
Quite interesting about the Mercedes engine.
Through a translator.
https://www.funoanalisitecnica.com/2021 ... sh_ce=6347
Article resorts to quite a bit of speculation. I mean they could be right, but could very well not be.

It's true strat 5 was usually the one used in races as the most powerful mode, however those modes are track specific and readjusted for each race. Strat 5 behaves completely different on each track. It's possible mercedes miscalculated how much they've got in reserve and could actually go harder on the PU than predicted, hence strat 4 instead of strat 5. We will see if strat 4 persists from now on, even then it could just be a slightly shifted naming scheme. I expect lots of rumblings from rival camps if mercedes indeed did find more power.

At one point during hungarian gp as hamilton was battling other cars he was told he's got strat 11 available if he needs it. What strat 11 is doing is anyone's guess. It could be a very low power mode, but why use it when you must pass fast :?:

zibby43
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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I was speculating at the beginning of the season, post-Bahrain, that the clipping/ERS problems were possibly the result of knock-on effects from the new plenum, and subsequently the ICE, underperforming.

If Merc have made steps to resolve those issues, which in turn has unlocked inherent potential that existed in the PU, that bodes well for Spa, Monza, etc.

It was mentioned in another thread that Merc may have a fuel/lubricants upgrade for Spa as well.

ryaan2904
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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CFD Eyes of Sauron

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Blackout
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Did Mercedes ever replaced it's turbo without replacing the MGUH (or vice-versa)?

Polite
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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ryaan2904 wrote:
Tue Aug 31, 2021 5:58 pm
so it begins.. Ferrari doesnt look involved in that. And although Schimdt says otherwise, if the rules on temperatures are not respected, the engine is illegal. hiring AMG technicians seems to be bringing to RBR the same advantages brought by Ferrari ones to AMg.

new secret deal coming..

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_cerber1
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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I remember how the head of the engine department at the chassis presentation said that the solutions for the intake system that they found are very promising and they will be developed in engines of future generations. With such formulations, it is hard to believe that they were concentrating their attention on some kind of gray areas that can be banned at any time.