2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
wuzak
wuzak
447
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:26 am

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

garrett wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:03 am
And the MGU-H will have to go for good. that's getting clearer.
Why?

If the MGUH is a stumbling block for new entrants, make it a standard part.

Pingguest
Pingguest
3
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2008 3:31 pm

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

wuzak wrote:
Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:35 am
garrett wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:03 am
And the MGU-H will have to go for good. that's getting clearer.
Why?

If the MGUH is a stumbling block for new entrants, make it a standard part.
Why standardizing the MGU-H instead of banning?

User avatar
Holm86
245
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:37 am
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

Pingguest wrote:
Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:57 pm
wuzak wrote:
Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:35 am
garrett wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:03 am
And the MGU-H will have to go for good. that's getting clearer.
Why?

If the MGUH is a stumbling block for new entrants, make it a standard part.
Why standardizing the MGU-H instead of banning?
Because the MGU-H is the biggest contributor to the high thermal efficiency of these engines

NL_Fer
NL_Fer
82
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2014 8:48 am

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

Pingguest wrote:
Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:57 pm
wuzak wrote:
Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:35 am
garrett wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:03 am
And the MGU-H will have to go for good. that's getting clearer.
Why?

If the MGUH is a stumbling block for new entrants, make it a standard part.
Why standardizing the MGU-H instead of banning?
Because current MGU-H supplies 70-80% of the ERS energy. Without MGU-H the ERS would be just a heavy ineffective system, like KERS was. Also most manufacturers are heavy into electric drivelines, so a more powerful MGU-K would be logical, which needs even more energy. Even if they would add front axle brake energy recovery, MGU-H is needed for total energy supply.

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
622
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:55 pm

Post

NL_Fer wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:40 am
Because current MGU-H supplies 70-80% of the ERS energy. Without MGU-H the ERS would be just a heavy ineffective system, like KERS was. Also most manufacturers are heavy into electric drivelines, so a more powerful MGU-K would be logical, which needs even more energy. Even if they would add front axle brake energy recovery, MGU-H is needed for total energy supply.
in case there's anyone who hasn't noticed .....

mechanical recovery of so-called heat energy is banned
mechanical recovery of so-called kinetic energy is banned
mechanical storage of recovered energy is banned

no accumulation of chemical fuel is allowed but accumulation of electrical 'fuel' is compulsory

Pingguest
Pingguest
3
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2008 3:31 pm

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

Holm86 wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 3:47 am
Pingguest wrote:
Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:57 pm
wuzak wrote:
Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:35 am


Why?

If the MGUH is a stumbling block for new entrants, make it a standard part.
Why standardizing the MGU-H instead of banning?
Because the MGU-H is the biggest contributor to the high thermal efficiency of these engines
But it would be irrelevant from a development point of view in case of a standardization.

User avatar
Zynerji
109
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:14 pm

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

Pingguest wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:04 am
Holm86 wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 3:47 am
Pingguest wrote:
Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:57 pm


Why standardizing the MGU-H instead of banning?
Because the MGU-H is the biggest contributor to the high thermal efficiency of these engines
But it would be irrelevant from a development point of view in case of a standardization.
I disagree.

A standardized part is the FASTEST way for the technology to make it to mass market as there are no trade secrets to protect.

Jolle
Jolle
132
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:58 pm
Location: Dordrecht

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

Zynerji wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:34 pm
Pingguest wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:04 am
Holm86 wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 3:47 am


Because the MGU-H is the biggest contributor to the high thermal efficiency of these engines
But it would be irrelevant from a development point of view in case of a standardization.
I disagree.

A standardized part is the FASTEST way for the technology to make it to mass market as there are no trade secrets to protect.
Well… If they, in this case, choose the Magnetti Martelli H motor shown in 2013 as a standerd part, there wouldn’t have been a spilt turbo solution and at the moment, in consumer products, the split turbo is the only one for sale in an actual car. There is no MM on any car out there.

The different commercial parties that would be interested in the real life application of a turbine driven recovery system could learn a lot from F1, companies like Bosch or Valeo. A standerd, sturdy, safe spec part, would hamper innovation.

This goes in my opinion for the several components that are new in this PU, where commercial use is possible. Battery tech, control electronics and where we see more use already: combustion chamber design and lean burn injection.

mzso
mzso
61
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2014 1:52 pm

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

wuzak wrote:
Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:30 am
mzso wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:34 pm
Why do you think hydrogen? I don't think its suitable for F1. Nor is it viable against EVs on the road.
Depends on what type of vehicle.

In cars, maybe not. But long haul trucks, where payload is the most important factor.

Recently a Hyundai Nexo fuel cell SUV broke the world record for distance traveled, just shy of 900km using just over 6kg of hydrogen.

The Nexo weighs 1,800kg, roughly the same as an equivalent petrol model, lighter than a BEV.

The official range is ~666km/414 miles.
Cost is the most important factor. And hydrogen usage is inherently wasteful. It would probably be more viable to put batteries under the trailers as well, beside the truck.

wuzak
wuzak
447
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:26 am

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

mzso wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:33 pm
wuzak wrote:
Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:30 am
mzso wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:34 pm
Why do you think hydrogen? I don't think its suitable for F1. Nor is it viable against EVs on the road.
Depends on what type of vehicle.

In cars, maybe not. But long haul trucks, where payload is the most important factor.

Recently a Hyundai Nexo fuel cell SUV broke the world record for distance traveled, just shy of 900km using just over 6kg of hydrogen.

The Nexo weighs 1,800kg, roughly the same as an equivalent petrol model, lighter than a BEV.

The official range is ~666km/414 miles.
Cost is the most important factor. And hydrogen usage is inherently wasteful. It would probably be more viable to put batteries under the trailers as well, beside the truck.
And what if by doing so you halved the payload?

User avatar
Zynerji
109
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:14 pm

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

Jolle wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:03 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:34 pm
Pingguest wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:04 am


But it would be irrelevant from a development point of view in case of a standardization.
I disagree.

A standardized part is the FASTEST way for the technology to make it to mass market as there are no trade secrets to protect.
Well… If they, in this case, choose the Magnetti Martelli H motor shown in 2013 as a standerd part, there wouldn’t have been a spilt turbo solution and at the moment, in consumer products, the split turbo is the only one for sale in an actual car. There is no MM on any car out there.

The different commercial parties that would be interested in the real life application of a turbine driven recovery system could learn a lot from F1, companies like Bosch or Valeo. A standerd, sturdy, safe spec part, would hamper innovation.

This goes in my opinion for the several components that are new in this PU, where commercial use is possible. Battery tech, control electronics and where we see more use already: combustion chamber design and lean burn injection.
A co-developed, mass-market MGUH produced and used by the teams would be best. Then they can all offer in road cars and make more money/lower emissions. How is this NOT a great idea?

User avatar
FW17
168
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 9:56 am

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

Zynerji wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 4:33 pm
Jolle wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:03 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:34 pm


I disagree.

A standardized part is the FASTEST way for the technology to make it to mass market as there are no trade secrets to protect.
Well… If they, in this case, choose the Magnetti Martelli H motor shown in 2013 as a standerd part, there wouldn’t have been a spilt turbo solution and at the moment, in consumer products, the split turbo is the only one for sale in an actual car. There is no MM on any car out there.

The different commercial parties that would be interested in the real life application of a turbine driven recovery system could learn a lot from F1, companies like Bosch or Valeo. A standerd, sturdy, safe spec part, would hamper innovation.

This goes in my opinion for the several components that are new in this PU, where commercial use is possible. Battery tech, control electronics and where we see more use already: combustion chamber design and lean burn injection.
A co-developed, mass-market MGUH produced and used by the teams would be best. Then they can all offer in road cars and make more money/lower emissions. How is this NOT a great idea?

How much gas can it save when fitted to a golf? Can the owner recoupe the additional cost through his period of ownership of 4 year?

User avatar
Zynerji
109
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:14 pm

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

FW17 wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 6:16 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 4:33 pm
Jolle wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:03 pm


Well… If they, in this case, choose the Magnetti Martelli H motor shown in 2013 as a standerd part, there wouldn’t have been a spilt turbo solution and at the moment, in consumer products, the split turbo is the only one for sale in an actual car. There is no MM on any car out there.

The different commercial parties that would be interested in the real life application of a turbine driven recovery system could learn a lot from F1, companies like Bosch or Valeo. A standerd, sturdy, safe spec part, would hamper innovation.

This goes in my opinion for the several components that are new in this PU, where commercial use is possible. Battery tech, control electronics and where we see more use already: combustion chamber design and lean burn injection.
A co-developed, mass-market MGUH produced and used by the teams would be best. Then they can all offer in road cars and make more money/lower emissions. How is this NOT a great idea?

How much gas can it save when fitted to a golf? Can the owner recoupe the additional cost through his period of ownership of 4 year?
For a commodity item that is mass produced? I mean, all cars have blower-motors already... Why would 1 more electric motor be much more expensive?

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
622
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:55 pm

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

Zynerji wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 6:48 pm
..... Why would 1 more electric motor be much more expensive?
about a million reasons
it's a 125000 rpm liquid-cooled MG that works by handshaking with a liquid cooled 'controller' multiple times per rev
do you have a 800V DC system on your car ?

and there won't be much scope for recovery in average road car use
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on Thu Aug 05, 2021 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

NL_Fer
NL_Fer
82
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2014 8:48 am

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

I doubt if we will see much of the mgu-h Turbocharger in real use. But is a great tool to drive the mgu-k, better than hydrogen or battery for the short term.