2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
J.A.W.
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Jolle wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 11:27 am
J.A.W. wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 12:29 am
Jolle wrote:
Fri Aug 06, 2021 12:07 pm


Vettel wasn’t disqualified because he used to much fuel. Cars can only use 110kg, but are allowed to carry more (for instance 115, for inlaps and that one L for analysis). In the “good old days” this was also the rule (started around the NA years in 1989 when they banned special fuels). Those years also had a max fuel tank size.

On most tracks cars on relative long races underfuel and have to save gas, it’s the fastest way from start to finish. Most likely last weekend none of the cars had 110kg fuel on board.

What do you mean with the rest? Can’t really make heads or tails from it.
Its basic Newtonian physics, force required to overcome mass inherent inertia.

DQ was due to failure to provide the mandatory fuel reserve, as rules required,
whether by omission (lighter load) or, by commission (more energy/force expended).
Every team knows for decades that they need to haul an extra liter of fuel for the end of the race. Why is this a physics problem all of the sudden?
Is "Heads or tails..." a random, or predictable occurrence/outcome ratio - in a multiple coin-toss event?

If the race is in effect, a form of economy/endurance run, rather than a full-blast 'balls-out' event,
then such exigencies of minutiae are compelling, as the DQ amply demonstrates..
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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J.A.W. wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 11:37 am
Jolle wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 11:27 am
J.A.W. wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 12:29 am


Its basic Newtonian physics, force required to overcome mass inherent inertia.

DQ was due to failure to provide the mandatory fuel reserve, as rules required,
whether by omission (lighter load) or, by commission (more energy/force expended).
Every team knows for decades that they need to haul an extra liter of fuel for the end of the race. Why is this a physics problem all of the sudden?
Is "Heads or tails..." a random, or predictable occurrence/outcome ratio - in a multiple coin-toss event?

If the race is in effect, a form of economy/endurance run, rather than a full-blast 'balls-out' event,
then such exigencies of minutiae are compelling, as the DQ amply demonstrates..
- teams know exactly how much fuel they used (due to the fuel flow meters)
- they are allowed to carry more fuel then the 110 kg max they may use
- all teams under fuel (since like forever) because a lighter car at the start with some fuel saving is faster then a full tank and no saving
- some of the teams took the risk and had to stop at the out lap because the race was different then they expected, AM just took to much risk.

mzso
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Jolle wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 11:27 am
Every team knows for decades that they need to haul an extra liter of fuel for the end of the race. Why is this a physics problem all of the sudden?
Yeah.
Also how hard it is to create a fuel trap that would hold 1.1 liters of fuel no matter what, even when the engine stalls due to lack of fuel? The FIA prefers bureaucracy (banning) instead of such simple things. If anyone had something like that as a standard, then this issue wouldn't come up from time to time.

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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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mzso wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 3:40 pm
Jolle wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 11:27 am
Every team knows for decades that they need to haul an extra liter of fuel for the end of the race. Why is this a physics problem all of the sudden?
Yeah.
Also how hard it is to create a fuel trap that would hold 1.1 liters of fuel no matter what, even when the engine stalls due to lack of fuel? The FIA prefers bureaucracy (banning) instead of such simple things. If anyone had something like that as a standard, then this issue wouldn't come up from time to time.
The problem that caught the team out is probably that starting of this year, the fuel outside the tank may not exceed 0.25 liters, as this was 2 liters since 2014. That's why since the turbo hybrid years, we didn't have this problem (as soon as the low pressure fuel pump started to gulp air, there was still enough in the system).

there is, as far as I know, no rule that you can't have the fuel pickup point for the low pressure fuel pump raised so there is always at least 0.75 liters in the tank. Of course I do not know if they use the same pickup point for the sample or that you can have a second pickup point (or teams, to save weight, want to use just a single pickup point)

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FW17
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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mzso wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 3:40 pm
Jolle wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 11:27 am
Every team knows for decades that they need to haul an extra liter of fuel for the end of the race. Why is this a physics problem all of the sudden?
Yeah.
Also how hard it is to create a fuel trap that would hold 1.1 liters of fuel no matter what, even when the engine stalls due to lack of fuel? The FIA prefers bureaucracy (banning) instead of such simple things. If anyone had something like that as a standard, then this issue wouldn't come up from time to time.
Why is this being discussed in future engine rules thread?

As for the trap, what of a team has a trap with baffle on top of it and fill it with legal fuel, while the rest of the tank holds illegal fuel. This sounds very much like what Honda 2006

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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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FW17 wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 4:30 pm
As for the trap, what of a team has a trap with baffle on top of it and fill it with legal fuel, while the rest of the tank holds illegal fuel. This sounds very much like what Honda 2006
Blatant breach of regulations, and bans.

I imagine the FIA could have provided a unit with a fuel flow meter in it and a compartment that would trap the require amount of fuel, instead of complicating bureaucracy. And a fuel pump for that matter, that wouldn't pump faster than 100l/hour.

FW17 wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 4:30 pm
Why is this being discussed in future engine rules thread?
Someone took the conversation in that direction.

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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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GPFans.com:
McLaren Racing CEO Zak Brown is confident F1 would lose none of its partners should the sport adopt louder bio-fueled engines.

The debate over what engines F1 will run in 2025 and beyond is one that continues to rage with some parties interested in pursuing a larger electrical element and others favouring a return to louder, high-revving engines but powered with sustainable fuels.

Agree 100%... Well done Zak... These OEM companies are raping F1 for their own agendas...

I predict EV's to be the next Dieselgate in 10 to 12 year's time... :D :D

mzso
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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mclaren111 wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 12:26 pm
I predict EV's to be the next Dieselgate in 10 to 12 year's time... :D
You will be thoroughly embarrassed in 10-12 years time.

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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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mzso wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 1:02 pm
mclaren111 wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 12:26 pm
I predict EV's to be the next Dieselgate in 10 to 12 year's time... :D
You will be thoroughly embarrassed in 10-12 years time.
:lol: 8) 8) :lol:

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Zynerji
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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mclaren111 wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 1:27 pm
mzso wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 1:02 pm
mclaren111 wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 12:26 pm
I predict EV's to be the next Dieselgate in 10 to 12 year's time... :D
You will be thoroughly embarrassed in 10-12 years time.
:lol: 8) 8) :lol:
Like VW was?

Or the people that believed their hot garbage?

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mclaren111
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Zynerji wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 2:53 pm
mclaren111 wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 1:27 pm
mzso wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 1:02 pm

You will be thoroughly embarrassed in 10-12 years time.
:lol: 8) 8) :lol:
Like VW was?

Or the people that believed their hot garbage?

All the OEM's was guilty regarding Dieselgate... Mercedes has openly admitted it...

wuzak
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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FW17 wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 4:30 pm
mzso wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 3:40 pm
Jolle wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 11:27 am
Every team knows for decades that they need to haul an extra liter of fuel for the end of the race. Why is this a physics problem all of the sudden?
Yeah.
Also how hard it is to create a fuel trap that would hold 1.1 liters of fuel no matter what, even when the engine stalls due to lack of fuel? The FIA prefers bureaucracy (banning) instead of such simple things. If anyone had something like that as a standard, then this issue wouldn't come up from time to time.
Why is this being discussed in future engine rules thread?

As for the trap, what of a team has a trap with baffle on top of it and fill it with legal fuel, while the rest of the tank holds illegal fuel. This sounds very much like what Honda 2006
The BAR Honda was underweight when all the fuel was removed from the tank. There was no way to physically prove that the BAR Honda ran the race at the correct weight (as was the rules then) so they were disqualified. For all the FIA knew the only time BAR Honda was at legal weight was after the last refuelling.

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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Just_a_fan
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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mclaren111 wrote:
Mon Aug 09, 2021 2:52 pm
http://www.f1reader.com/list/news/lates ... dea-285939


Great News...
With the drive to lower costs, the obvious thing is to maintain the current PUs in to the future. Going to an entirely new PU format would be a total waste of resources for the teams. Of course Red Bull would like to attract a new engine supplier but realistically they might be the only ones. Everyone else either makes their own or has good relations with their PU supplier.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

NL_Fer
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Logical,

Alpine has to fund the f1 project from its own revenues and will not get financial support from Renault anymore. So they won’t be interested in another development battle with financial giants like Mercedes & Ferrari.