Montezemolo still banging on about third cars

[donskar]

Im starting to think that the testing ban is starting to be a bit outdated now. Heres how id have the testing re-structured;

Preseason:

* 15 Days accross 4 tracks.
* Test 1: Valencia - Feb 1 to Feb 3 (Circuit Ricardo Tormo) [Single Car]
* Test 2: Circuito de Jerez - Feb 10 to Feb13 [Single Car]
* Test 3: Circuit de Catalunya - Feb 18 to Feb 21 [Single Car]
* Test 4: Sakihr, Bahrain - Mar 3rd to Mar 6th [Dual Car] (The team will have all its gear in place for the first GP by then.
* Race Drivers are limited to 7 dats total testing (A half day will constitute a full day), this will mean that Test, Reserve & Young guys can get a feel for the car.
* The final 5 teams in the Constructors Title the year before are granted an extra 2 days testing at Bahrain
* This gives a total of 19 days testing for the successful teams and 21 for the tail enders, their Race Drivers are also granted an extra days testing in lew of this as well.
* Each team is limited to 10,000km (Bottom 5 teams will be 12,000km).

On Season Testing:
* There should be 2 on season tests lasting 3 days
* Testing will be done by Test, reserve or Development drivers
* Race drivers arnt allowed to be active at theese events.
* Testing will be done at non-callander cuicits like Aragon and Portamao
* Each team is limited to 500km per day.

At Race testing:
* In FP1 at 15 events (new tracks excepted) each team has to put in a Test, reserve or Development driver

Post Season:
* At Abu Dhabi there will be a single 5 day test from the Tuesday after each GP
* The first two are used for Development and Young Drivers
* The first three days shall be dual car status to get as many young guys on track as posible. The last two days for the test will be single car status.
* The final two days are for Race, Test or Reserve drivers to experiment with new things for the following season.
* Each team is limited to 5,000km

This gives teams a posible 17,500km test allowance for each season, with new teams having 19,500km allowance with more time for their drivers to get their cars better.

It also means that there can be some in season testing as well to develop drivers for the future.

However, without a concrete set of regulations (Both technichal and sporting) for a period of say 5 years, and a strong RRA and fair Concorde aggreement this will simply not happen.

My attitude to a third car is if a team wishes to run one they can, then if the team has a 1-2-3 finish they only get points for the first two with third placed points going down to P4 then. Complicated, but fair. But to be honest id like to see a 13th team as well, or two well financed single car teams would also be decent to me as well.

Some sound thinking here, ESPImperium.

I like the idea of additional testing AND that it be restricted to real "test" drivers. We need to keep fresh new talent flowing into F1.

Also like the idea of tail-endres getting moer testing (but I wonder if the really bad team(s) would be able to afford it!)

I'm ambivalent about 3-car teams, but strongly support the idea of single-car entrants. They could add a lot to the sport.

Also would like to see independent teams be allowed to buy and run a car. How control it? The third Williams (for example) would NOT count toward Williams' points.

I'd add some definition about "promotional" events. Those events could be used to skirt the testing limits, but they need to be allowed, with controls, to help the teams satisfy (and attract) sponsors.

[ESPImperium]

Let me try and address some of those points:

Also like the idea of tail-endres getting moer testing (but I wonder if the really bad team(s) would be able to afford it!)

This would be put into the way their TV money is arranged, like Virgin and Hispania getting $7.5m TV money and $12m free support from DHL for logistics.

I'm ambivalent about 3-car teams, but strongly support the idea of single-car entrants. They could add a lot to the sport.

Same her, but the reason i mention single car entries, is it would then allow teams like ART in France to enter a car or the likes of Epsilon. Also allow you to introduce a "promotion and relegation" thing as well, so if a single car entrant gets good results they can then get a second car the next year if they want. All related to the constructors championship it would have to be.

And someone should really point out the herritigae of Williams and McLaren to the single car idea as they both oppose it.

Also would like to see independent teams be allowed to buy and run a car. How control it? The third Williams (for example) would NOT count toward Williams' points.

Third cars would be run by the actual team they are affiliated to, but id much prefer a couple of single car entries. However, if a team wanted to they could buy a 2 year old chassis IP and then make their own chassis, but not take a 2 year old chassis out of moth balls and then run it. Constructors points would go towards the chassis type, for example the McLaren MP4/25 or Red Bull RB3.

I'd add some definition about "promotional" events. Those events could be used to skirt the testing limits, but they need to be allowed, with controls, to help the teams satisfy (and attract) sponsors.

Teams can do promotional events, at a cuircit they can run a 2 year old car in homoginised state as of the Japaneese GP where id like to see all car development be ceased for the current season. This is limited to a maximum of 500km per year and must be done by a development driver in this car. Race Drivers can be present, but only limited to using cars over 5 years old.

Teams going to do demos in cities like what Red Bull and Renault have done in the past have to use a 5+ year old car. Also limit theese events to 50km.

As for TV days, each team is allowed to stay behind at any GP for a single day and run a car for up to 10 laps. This must be done on a set of tyres that will literally make the car undriveable after 30km. Teams can only do one of theese days twice a year, with at least 10GP between them. However if a team wants to use the Thursday at any GP for this they can do so as well.

Everything would be really tightly controlled, but it would give greater freedoms as well with regaurds to testing and getting new tallent used to the cars.

[ESPImperium]

hm 500km a day during on season testing... how much money does a team spend when going to a track to test the car? would those 500 km a day be worth it when talking about price/benefit ratio?

it costs roughly €200,000 a day, thats what Hispania were charging at Abu Dhabi at the end of last season.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

When you look at the homolgation of bits and bobs on the car, what difference will a further 6000kms make?
Not alot.

This is why under the current guise at least it wll be a silly idea to increase in season testing. What benefit could happen when you are limited by what you can change?
Some but not much.
The rules on design need to change first, before that of testing. Then we can see tangible changes from the actual testing.

When you are locked in to somthing as basic as weight distribution(as Mercedes GP with the W01) then you are screwed regardless of wether your car does 20,000kms or more.

Montezemolo is right when he says that F1 is too aero focused. What relevance does this have to cars we use everyday? Nothing
Does it add anything of value to the Sport? Not in my book.
Does it mean teams need to spend more and test more? Of course it does.

The real question is will F1 make cars things that use their rubber and engines and drivers to go round quickly rather than have fancy expensively obtained wings and winglets and F-ducts and Diffusers that add technical aero interest, but not much else. Luca needs Whitmarsh Haug and Horner to force it, but Im sure we are tired now of seeing the best aero car win...it has no relevance at all.

Rant over

[Just_a_fan]

Montezemolo is right when he says that F1 is too aero focused. What relevance does this have to cars we use everyday? Nothing

Have you looked at a modern road car? They're covered in little aero pieces to reduce drag (and lift at speed)

Does it add anything of value to the Sport? Not in my book.

F1 is an aero formula.

The real question is will F1 make cars things that use their rubber and engines and drivers to go round quickly rather than have fancy expensively obtained wings and winglets and F-ducts and Diffusers that add technical aero interest, but not much else. Luca needs Whitmarsh Haug and Horner to force it, but Im sure we are tired now of seeing the best aero car win...it has no relevance at all.

F1 is an aero formula.

Racing is about getting to the line first. On a twisty race track you gain more by going quickly on the twists than you do by going quickly on the straights. To go quickly on the twists you need downforce - tyres alone can't do it for you. Ergo you need to focus on aero where the rules allow.

If you want low downforce racing there are plenty of other fornulae.

Seems to me that people should be asking the broadcasters to show more motorsport rather than asking for F1 to become an expensive version of Formula Ford.

If you could watch FF, F3, GP2 and F1 during a weekend then you'd have most open-wheeled bases covered.

Of course, people could go to their local tracks and support other formulae in person rather than demanding that F1 be watered down. I wonder how many F1 "fans" have ever watched anything other than televised F1...

My local circuit is Silverstone and I've watched 1930/40s stuff, 1950/60s stuff, sports cars, superbikes and modern f1 there. And each has its own attractions. Some of the historic racing was mental but at low speed, the bikes were just bikes (i.e. inherently insane) and F1 was jaw droppingly fast. Is one better than the others? No.

Stop trying to make F1 something that it isn't!

Rant over...

[Just_a_fan]

Not quite on topic, but more nonsense from Mr. M.

"We need to avoid that F1 only becomes an aerodynamic test... [F1 needs] maximum performance and innovative technology - and also to anticipate what will be the transfer of technology to GT cars."

Future Ferrari GT cars to be brick shaped then Luca?

Autosport: Ferrari boss calls for F1 rules rethink

He usually has the issue of talk first, think later, but i think his ideas are correct. Testing ban has to be dropped. Period.

LdM wants testing back because Ferrari have private testing facilities at their disposal. They won in the early 2000s because they could run test after test and their drivers could practise endlessly.

If they allow unlimited testing again then the other top teams will end up spending a fortune securing testing facilities. Hardly a great idea in these times of budget caps.

If they're going to allow more testing then it should be during the race weekends. How about allowing some Thursday running or how about the Monday after the race being a test day. At least that gets away from all of the costs associated with jetting test teams around the world like they used to.

Alternatively, say that Ferrari have to allow other teams equal access to their test tracks...

[ESPImperium]

LdM wants testing back because Ferrari have private testing facilities at their disposal. They won in the early 2000s because they could run test after test and their drivers could practise endlessly.

If they allow unlimited testing again then the other top teams will end up spending a fortune securing testing facilities. Hardly a great idea in these times of budget caps.

If he wants testing back there should be two 3-week breaks in the season so teams can go testing, but its not an exclusive test where its only one or a few teams at a cuircit. What it should be is teams go to a non callander cuircit like Motorland Aragon, Portamao, Imola or Paul Ricard. There should be at least 8 teams at each test, this way it is fair.

As for unlimited testing, i belive there should be a fair limit for each test day for each team, this means testing is equalised, and there is more relyance on CFD and Wind Tunnels. Testing sould be there for reinforcing the numbers from CFD and the Tunnels.

As for CFD and Tunnels, teams should be limited to a certain number of calculations per day, im not a computer guy so i cannot say how many they should be allowed, someone in a blog said it was heading towards 40 terraflops capasity. As for tunnels, there should be a limit of 750 hours a year in the tunnel. However, id like teams to be able to trade say 4 terraflops and a days tunnel testing for an extra days testing.

Im of the opinion that there should be a limit on CFD and Tunnels, but teams should be able to trade tunnel time and or CFD power for extra testing time.

If they're going to allow more testing then it should be during the race weekends. How about allowing some Thursday running or how about the Monday after the race being a test day. At least that gets away from all of the costs associated with jetting test teams around the world like they used to.

Thats why id like to see a non race driver in a car for FP1 for say 14 events a year, this is the only fair way for new tallent to come thrugh, and teams should have to split the car equally between their race drivers so not one rade driver is disadvantaged over the other.

Alternatively, say that Ferrari have to allow other teams equal access to their test tracks...

The did once to McLaren in 1999 or 2000, the McLaren was faster. But i can see that going down well at Maranello.

[Raptor22]

He's right you can't compare Ferrari and Mercedes, because Mercedes invented the freaking automobile, and was already racing before Ferrari even existed.

Luca might not realize it, but talking about being cool, actually makes you quite uncool. You don't have to tell us Ferrari is the ---, they are Ferrari for Pete's sake. Is he trying to sell me a vacuum cleaner at my door? C'mon.

If I was Tifosi, I would be disillusioned that my old team core now runs the team he is slamming, and his god of a driver is now his competitor.

But no, there is no comparison right? Thank god this idiot is not the head of the FOTA dragon any more.

The problem with tifosi is that they are blind to the anti F1 politics that is expoused in the name of "Ferrari". Nothing deMontezemolo does is for teh good of F1. He thinks only of his own political ambition and how Ferrari is the vehicle to gain him the popularity that he craves to further all his "other" interests.

He is also the biggest hipocrit around. He says F1 should never be road car relevant but continues to banter on about how f1 is important to Ferrari ( a road car producer...._)
They say in the land of the blind the one eyed man is king..well say hello to Monte the one eyed king.

[donskar]

How incredibly silly. I know the blind haters don't care, but here is the man who is so often attacked. Envy? Bigotry? Jingoism? Anyway, for those who care to base opinions on some semblance of facts (from Wikipedia and many other public sources) [emphasis added]:

Montezemolo drove briefly for the famous and privately owned Lancia rally team known as HF Squadra Corse. He joined the auto manufacturing conglomerate FIAT S.p.A., headquartered in Torino, Italy, and in 1973 was moved to Ferrari, where he became Enzo Ferrari's assistant and, in 1974, manager of the Scuderia [/b]. In 1975, Montezemolo was promoted to become head of all FIAT racing activities [at age 28!], and in 1977 he advanced to become a senior manager of FIAT.

Throughout the 1980s, Montezemolo occupied a number of positions in the FIAT empire, including managing director of the drinks company Cinzano and director of the publishing company Itedi. In 1982, he managed America's Cup challenge of Team Azzurra, the first Italian yacht to enter the event. In 1985, he became manager of the organizing committee for 1990 World Cup Italia.

In November 1991, FIAT Chairman Gianni Agnelli appointed Montezemolo president of Ferrari, which had been struggling since Enzo Ferrari's death. Montezemolo made it his personal goal to win the Formula One World Constructors' Championship once again [and he did]. Montezemolo quickly made changes at the Italian team, signing up Niki Lauda as consultant and promoting Claudio Lombardi to team manager role. During the 1990s he resurrected the Ferrari road car business from heavy debts into solid profit. He also took on the presidency of Maserati when Ferrari acquired it in 1997, until 2005.

Under Cordero di Montezemolo and executive director Jean Todt, the Ferrari Formula One team won the World Drivers Championship in 2000, the first time since 1979. The previous year, 1999, they had won the constructors' championship for the first time since 1983.

BTW: he's worth around $400 million.

This is a man who has achieved great success, and he probably has some good years left -- he's 63.

Chatter on, haters. But don't expect him to take notice. He has important things to do.

[Giblet]

You don't have to hate someone to consider him an pompous idiot.

[Raptor22]

How incredibly silly. I know the blind haters don't care, but here is the man who is so often attacked. Envy? Bigotry? Jingoism? Anyway, for those who care to base opinions on some semblance of facts (from Wikipedia and many other public sources) [emphasis added]:

Montezemolo drove briefly for the famous and privately owned Lancia rally team known as HF Squadra Corse. He joined the auto manufacturing conglomerate FIAT S.p.A., headquartered in Torino, Italy, and in 1973 was moved to Ferrari, where he became Enzo Ferrari's assistant and, in 1974, manager of the Scuderia [/b]. In 1975, Montezemolo was promoted to become head of all FIAT racing activities [at age 28!], and in 1977 he advanced to become a senior manager of FIAT.

Throughout the 1980s, Montezemolo occupied a number of positions in the FIAT empire, including managing director of the drinks company Cinzano and director of the publishing company Itedi. In 1982, he managed America's Cup challenge of Team Azzurra, the first Italian yacht to enter the event. In 1985, he became manager of the organizing committee for 1990 World Cup Italia.

In November 1991, FIAT Chairman Gianni Agnelli appointed Montezemolo president of Ferrari, which had been struggling since Enzo Ferrari's death. Montezemolo made it his personal goal to win the Formula One World Constructors' Championship once again [and he did]. Montezemolo quickly made changes at the Italian team, signing up Niki Lauda as consultant and promoting Claudio Lombardi to team manager role. During the 1990s he resurrected the Ferrari road car business from heavy debts into solid profit. He also took on the presidency of Maserati when Ferrari acquired it in 1997, until 2005.

Under Cordero di Montezemolo and executive director Jean Todt, the Ferrari Formula One team won the World Drivers Championship in 2000, the first time since 1979. The previous year, 1999, they had won the constructors' championship for the first time since 1983.

BTW: he's worth around $400 million.

This is a man who has achieved great success, and he probably has some good years left -- he's 63.

Chatter on, haters. But don't expect him to take notice. He has important things to do.

yawn...............hero worship

[mx_tifoso]

I admire his accomplishments and all, but it would be nice if he spoke at least half as much as he currently does. But then again, that's a good suggestion for almost anyone.