Union for F1 workers?

[Sebp]

And that's exactly ... from the 1970s. "Everybody out!"

IMO this is the mindset that led the world into financial chaos. "Let the market regulate itself" - BS! We are missing some good ol' solidarity, folks...

[SpookTheHamster]

asdf

[n_anirudh]

http://www.gpmechanicstrust.com/

Guessing they are gentlemen..they have a trust and not a union...

F1 teams work in shifts and now they can operate only @ 47 people/team including marketing etc...

Sure they face burnouts and feel stressed like rest of the working class..doubt if unions would work...

F1 drivers union has GPDA

[Jersey Tom]

Does anyone know how well are the F1 engineers being paid as compared to those say industrial, aviation or automotive industry?

I was very surprised when I heard some typical starting salary numbers - though I'm not sure if it was specific to F1 or more typical of starting engineering salaries in England. Either way, in retrospect I'm quite happy I didn't take the Europe / F1 route and stuck in the US instead!

Sure at some point the idea of going over there and working was alluring, seemed like it would be a fun challenge... but have to be a realist and practical as well, thinking about planning for the future and retirement.

[Richard]

Hi JT - In our experience US engineers are paid more than UK. It makes it very hard with transferring staff between the US and UK. A US engineer on secondment from NY to London might be paid more than his line manager in London.

[strad]

LOCK IT!!!!!!!!!!!!

[beelsebob]

Hi JT - In our experience US engineers are paid more than UK. It makes it very hard with transferring staff between the US and UK. A US engineer on secondment from NY to London might be paid more than his line manager in London.

Herein lies the problem. It's not that US engineers are paid more than UK ones that are a problem... It's that managers don't like it when a "subordinate" who's actually doing something useful is paid more than they are.

[Richard]

That's a cynical view bob. I was only using that example to show that the difference is roughly equal to one pay grade, in the range of 20%. I'm talking about an engineering consultancy, so grade is about level of experience. They are all engineers.

Part of it is about productivity, the US offices tend to work longer hours, take 30 min lunch break, 2 week holiday instead of 4, they don't have such a generous pension or health schemes. We estimate that accounts for roughly 10% difference. The other 10% is probably because the US is richer country with a higher standard of living than the UK.

The moral is that if you are a Chartered Engineer (or PE in the USA) and want to make more money, then go to the USA. Actually if you really want to earn more money you should got the Middle East or China. I hear Australia is pretty good too.

Yes I know this is all a gross generalisation!

[Steven]

Hi JT - In our experience US engineers are paid more than UK. It makes it very hard with transferring staff between the US and UK. A US engineer on secondment from NY to London might be paid more than his line manager in London.

Are you talking about income before or after taxes?

I'm not sure how it is in the UK, but I'm pretty sure taxes on work are much higher in Belgium, France, Germany, ... than in the USA (due to various reasons, including health insurance and stuff like that).

[Richard]

Both. Lower cost of employment in the US, high gross pay, higher take home pay.

Its not all rosy though. Employment protection seems negligible compared to UK standards, and the UK is pretty thin on that compared to the rest of the EU. We've had a few redundancies in the last few years. If a project falls through in the US, then we can say to people "don't come back next week". In the UK you have to have 28 day consultation. In some of our EU offices it has been really tortuous.

Incidentally, our US offices give the guys the same redundancies terms as the UK people (a week pay for each year employed, plus 4 weeks notice period). We do that because we find it helps massively with retention.

Sick pay & maternity is also different.

Anyway its all swings and roundabouts, depends on how much value you place on your lifestyle. Of course Peter Windsor had a memorable take on all this in his USF1 blog. Something along the lines that it is easier to be an entrepreneur in the US, easier to hire people (he didn't mention the firing for some reason ) and your employees take hardly any holidays.

[Jersey Tom]

I had heard numbers on the order of 50-60% different. But it is indeed hard to make an apples-to-apples comparison. When I was at my previous job, I was amazed at how much holiday time much of Europe has - at least on the Continent. Not sure of England works similarly.

For comparisons sake, at my previous job I had 10 days holiday time to use annually, for each of my 3-4 years there. At my new employment, I have 5 days for the year.

[beelsebob]

I had heard numbers on the order of 50-60% different. But it is indeed hard to make an apples-to-apples comparison. When I was at my previous job, I was amazed at how much holiday time much of Europe has - at least on the Continent.

In all my jobs in continental europe and in the UK I've had a 4 week holiday allocation roughly.

Not sure of England works similarly.

Just for reference – England != UK.

For comparisons sake, at my previous job I had 10 days holiday time to use annually, for each of my 3-4 years there. At my new employment, I have 5 days for the year.

Yeh, that's pretty painful – 21 is the norm in the UK.

[Richard]

I get 6 weeks.....

4 weeks standard
An extra week after 2 years service
I buy an extra week, ie unpaid holiday.

[Richard]

The first thing I did when I started was to sign a waiver to the EU 48-hour working week rule.

That is a UK specific opt out, the rest of the EU are unable to have that option. I wonder wonder how the non-UK teams handle that?

[Jersey Tom]

Just for reference – England != UK.

Yes but not many F1 teams working out of Scotland, Wales, or Ireland Wasn't sure how regional work practices are there.

In any event I should be back up to 10 days holiday next year. Not sure after that. Previous gig it took 5 years service to get to 15 days, think 10 years service to get 20 days.. and that was the limit. For the time being, going from 5 to 10 will be glorious.