New FIA Front Wing Load Test

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hardingfv32
hardingfv32
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Re: New FIA Front Wing Load Test

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Anisotropic Structure

So, you apply a horizontal force and it could move downward, but you apply a vertical force and it does not move horizontally (rearward)?

How is this possible? Just a rough explanation is fine at this point.

Brian

xpensive
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Re: New FIA Front Wing Load Test

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myurr wrote:
xpensive wrote:So the FIA still haven't got it, have they? They need to add the horizontal load from aerodynamic drag to get the true vertical deflection from an anisotropic structure as a modern carbonfibre front wing, this is the obvious "secret".
If they can't find any other way to properly enforce it then they should run every single cars front wing in a wind tunnel to generate proper load on it and measure it fully. If that means front wings are homologated then so be it.
...
As wing-loads in every direction is a very complex thing, it might just come to that, an FIA windtunnel test-bench?
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

munudeges
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Re: New FIA Front Wing Load Test

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The problem is that they need to catch this under a static test. A windtunnel one simply won't do.

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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Re: New FIA Front Wing Load Test

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myurr wrote:
If they can't find any other way to properly enforce it then they should run every single cars front wing in a wind tunnel to generate proper load on it and measure it fully. If that means front wings are homologated then so be it.

They go through tests of similar scale elsewhere, such as the crash tests. Better a level playing field and properly enforced rules than some finding 'clever' ways to basically cheat.

And it is cheating, despite some members claiming otherwise. An athlete that finds a clever scientific way to beat drugs tests isn't a better athlete, they are a clever cheat. That some teams have found a way to beat the flexing wing tests, designed to keep the aero parts of the cars rigid but with practical tolerances as a perfectly rigid body isn't possible, is likewise cheating.

Perhaps each team should be required to provide an attachment that perfectly fits over the outer 20cm of the front wing and attaches firmly to it. A 250-300kg weight should then be applied to it along with a horizontal component to put the proper load on the front wing and correctly measure the deflection.
A resounding thumbs up to this.

Iam fully aware that no F1 car can be fully rigid. Concrete and glass arent blah blah blah.....
To use the above as a justification for what we have seen is crazy. Other teams had to invest in development to try and copy the idea, Why? Why was it left to this late stage to up the ante and after teams had decided to invest in copying?
I understand Whiting is going to attend Jerez as there are rumours circulating that a couple of front running team ideas arent all above board....

A wind tunnel test can also be done very easily. Laser measurements can be taken with consummate ease, also be cheap to do.
More could have been done.
David Purley

bhall
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Re: New FIA Front Wing Load Test

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But, F1 is not a level playing field from team to team. And who really wants that anyway?

If a car passes inspection, it is legal. Why? Because the inspection tools are the same for all teams. That's the only level playing field that matters.

xpensive
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Re: New FIA Front Wing Load Test

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xpensive wrote:
myurr wrote:
xpensive wrote:So the FIA still haven't got it, have they? They need to add the horizontal load from aerodynamic drag to get the true vertical deflection from an anisotropic structure as a modern carbonfibre front wing, this is the obvious "secret".
If they can't find any other way to properly enforce it then they should run every single cars front wing in a wind tunnel to generate proper load on it and measure it fully. If that means front wings are homologated then so be it.
...
As wing-loads in every direction is a very complex thing, it might just come to that, an FIA windtunnel test-bench?
Having said that, simply adding a horizontal component to the current load-test might make Newey a little nervous?
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

munudeges
munudeges
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Re: New FIA Front Wing Load Test

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JohnsonsEvilTwin wrote:A wind tunnel test can also be done very easily.
No it can't. You need accurate measurements and that cannot be done in a moving environment for reasons that should be very obvious. It must be static.

As X says, they're probably going to need to vary the direction of the test to catch this.

xpensive
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Re: New FIA Front Wing Load Test

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Rather simple that I believe, just the way they test the rear wing already?
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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Re: New FIA Front Wing Load Test

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munudeges wrote:
JohnsonsEvilTwin wrote:A wind tunnel test can also be done very easily.
No it can't. You need accurate measurements and that cannot be done in a moving environment for reasons that should be very obvious. It must be static.
Is the car not static in a wind tunnel?

I wonder how these measurements cannot be done in a "moving" environment when Teams can garner all sorts of information from windtunnels.....
More could have been done.
David Purley

myurr
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Re: New FIA Front Wing Load Test

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bhallg2k wrote:But, F1 is not a level playing field from team to team. And who really wants that anyway?

If a car passes inspection, it is legal. Why? Because the inspection tools are the same for all teams. That's the only level playing field that matters.
That is far too simplistic a view. Take my previous example. If an athlete finds a way to beat the dope testing system does that make their actions legal? Should all the other athletes have to start finding clever ways to take drugs or should the governing body be cracking down on the clever circumvention of the rules?

In F1 it is expressly written into the rules that the test is secondary to the intention of there being no flex in the car, and that they can change the tests at any time should they feel the teams are flouting the rules. The teams ARE flouting the rules!

radosav
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Re: New FIA Front Wing Load Test

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hi, new member here. i am civil engeneer and f1 fan, i don't know much about aerodinamics, but from my experience with static systems i must ask you this:what if you place all of those small elements of the front wings so that downforce that they produce is placed on the edges of the main element of front wing, the same place where FIA place their 'force' during the test. so, those FIA's 100kg (1000N) wouldn't flex front wing as those real 200-300 kg (2000-3000 N) during the race.red bull wing looks designed like that. just an idea.

bhall
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Re: New FIA Front Wing Load Test

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myurr wrote:That is far too simplistic a view [...]
Things don't have to be complicated simply because it's Formula 1. (Complicated? Simply? Yeah.) And while I understand the point you've made with the doping parallel, it's not the same at all. (For one thing, Vettel's testes aren't going to shrivel up because the front wing of his car flexes.)

Teams have always found ways around the strictest interpretation of the rules, and they always will. If it's not one thing, it's another. Should it be illegal for drivers to collect clag on their tires after the race to ensure their car weighs enough?

The best you can do is adopt a standard and stick to it so that it's the same for all teams.

Jersey Tom
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Re: New FIA Front Wing Load Test

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What's the point? If a wing flexes under load... so what? On a fundamental level it makes no difference to me.
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hardingfv32
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Re: New FIA Front Wing Load Test

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xpensive wrote:Having said that, simply adding a horizontal component to the current load-test might make Newey a little nervous?
So, you apply a horizontal force and it could move downward, but you apply a vertical force and it does not move horizontally (rearward)?

How is this possible? Just a rough explanation is fine at this point.

Brian

Caito
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Re: New FIA Front Wing Load Test

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bhallg2k wrote:But, F1 is not a level playing field from team to team. And who really wants that anyway?

If a car passes inspection, it is legal. Why? Because the inspection tools are the same for all teams. That's the only level playing field that matters.

That has always been the essence of the formula 1. I agree with your thoughts.

That's why the rulebook in F1 is so damn little. Just a couple of pages. To encourage all this stuff. Of course it might get out of their hands, so they reinforce the rules( new static test), still leaving them food for thought. As xpensive said, it might be an anisotropic wing. Isn't that great indeed? You have to allow the "better" engineers to win.
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