2012 Car Development

[amouzouris]

2008 nose hole...2010 wheel fairings...2012 (i dont know what it is called) but the multi-element part of the rear wing where the endplate and the wings meet...

[Crucial_Xtreme]

Have Sauber still got access to the Albert series of computing equipment?

BMW updated AlbertII to AlbertIII before they left at a cost of €45m. So yes.

AlbertIII was then the second most powerful CFD facility in F1 behind Wirth Research. Now its maybes not in the top 3 but is in the top 5 or 6 say. But as Wirth showed, power isnt the be all and end all. Look at McLaren, their CFD and wind tunnel were both updated in 2008/2009, Mercedes last full tunnel updates were 2007/2008. Mercedes updated their CFD last year, and McLaren will be updating both tunnel and CFD sometime this year.

In F1 a good CFD conputer is a nessesaty, however now it is only as good as the tunnels you use and the real world data that is gathered. Ferrari are showing this year the best CFD in F1 isnt translating as their 2010 tunnel upgrade from 50% to 60% has gone wrong, its needing numbers from Toyotas tunnel for corrolation and a good dollop of real World data to get a accurate marjin for error.

Car development wise this should help Sauber as they have a vastly powerful machine and a good tunnel. However their achillies heel so far is lack of a Technichal Director. This is a car that James Key would have just evolved and evolved, especially if the sponsors now jump onboard post Malasia as rumor has it Sauber is ready for a major worldwide brand name to be put on the car.

I agree with most of this, but surely you don't think Ferrari have the best CFD facility in F1?? I wouldn't say they're in the top 3. As Fry mentioned before the season , they are behind others in simulation. I believe they have their tunnel sorted but the main issues revolve around their sub-par CFD facility & knowledge. In a year or two they should be amongst the best.

As for developments for 2012, I'm stumped. Guess that's why I'm not an F1 engineer. It seems McLaren for instance have possibly gotten as much as possible from this area. Others can develop more in this area as they are behind. I'm just wondering what people think the most likely & most profitable development path for 2012 is?

[raymondu999]

Who's manning Ferrari's CFD, anyways? Chief Aero is Tombazis is it not? Is it him?

I think there probably isn't a single primary focus such as we had in 2010 with the f-duct or ebd, and the 2009 double diffusers; but just a plain jane refinement of everything. Possibly the coke bottle region or under the nose could be development hotspots to generate better diffuser downforce to compensate for the lack of EBD - but seeing as Red Bull (who have been the coke bottle kings since 2009) have sacrificed their coke bottle in pursuit of the Sauber exhaust/sidepod concept - I have no idea.

[Crucial_Xtreme]

Who's manning Ferrari's CFD, anyways? Chief Aero is Tombazis is it not? Is it him?

I think there probably isn't a single primary focus such as we had in 2010 with the f-duct or ebd, and the 2009 double diffusers; but just a plain jane refinement of everything. Possibly the coke bottle region or under the nose could be development hotspots to generate better diffuser downforce to compensate for the lack of EBD - but seeing as Red Bull (who have been the coke bottle kings since 2009) have sacrificed their coke bottle in pursuit of the Sauber exhaust/sidepod concept - I have no idea.

I'm not sure who's directly in charge of their CFD, but in a pre-season AutoSport magazine edition, Fry said Neil Martin was brought in for many things but upgrading simulation facilities was one of them.

I think you're right Ray, no big one development homeruns but just refining the entire package. Either way makes for an interesting season.

[raymondu999]

Like I said earlier in the year mate (and you gave me hell for it then too) Neil Martin is NOT under CFD. His job is STRATEGY simulation. Not CFD simulation. He doesn't simulate airflow over a car - he's simulating how fast a tyre will be if you push it, and how long it will last - and he simulates to find the best case scenario to find the quickest way for the car to finish a race.

He doesn't know a thing about CFD - if Ferrari really hired him to do up their CFD then Ferrari really is run by idiots...

He was a strategist at McLaren and a strategist at Red Bull. And now he's a strategist at Ferrari. The role has been greatly redefined; but he fills the void that used to be Chris Dyer's job.

[ESPImperium]

Have Sauber still got access to the Albert series of computing equipment?

BMW updated AlbertII to AlbertIII before they left at a cost of €45m. So yes.

AlbertIII was then the second most powerful CFD facility in F1 behind Wirth Research. Now its maybes not in the top 3 but is in the top 5 or 6 say. But as Wirth showed, power isnt the be all and end all. Look at McLaren, their CFD and wind tunnel were both updated in 2008/2009, Mercedes last full tunnel updates were 2007/2008. Mercedes updated their CFD last year, and McLaren will be updating both tunnel and CFD sometime this year.

In F1 a good CFD conputer is a nessesaty, however now it is only as good as the tunnels you use and the real world data that is gathered. Ferrari are showing this year the best CFD in F1 isnt translating as their 2010 tunnel upgrade from 50% to 60% has gone wrong, its needing numbers from Toyotas tunnel for corrolation and a good dollop of real World data to get a accurate marjin for error.

Car development wise this should help Sauber as they have a vastly powerful machine and a good tunnel. However their achillies heel so far is lack of a Technichal Director. This is a car that James Key would have just evolved and evolved, especially if the sponsors now jump onboard post Malasia as rumor has it Sauber is ready for a major worldwide brand name to be put on the car.

I agree with most of this, but surely you don't think Ferrari have the best CFD facility in F1?? I wouldn't say they're in the top 3. As Fry mentioned before the season , they are behind others in simulation. I believe they have their tunnel sorted but the main issues revolve around their sub-par CFD facility & knowledge. In a year or two they should be amongst the best.

As for developments for 2012, I'm stumped. Guess that's why I'm not an F1 engineer. It seems McLaren for instance have possibly gotten as much as possible from this area. Others can develop more in this area as they are behind. I'm just wondering what people think the most likely & most profitable development path for 2012 is?

Ferrari have the best, AMD and Kapersky upgraded the Ferrari facility last year and is now just ahead of the Wirth/Marussia one that was designed to be at full speed all year round as this way Virgin were to make the fist all and only CFD "Winner" in F1. Ferrari only have a .5% advantage over the Wirth one.

Ferrari havnt upgraded their simulater since it came into being in 2004, it has been given minor updates yes, but not a upgrade, Mclaren use thei simulator the best and have the best Simulator as Lotus went to them for the exact same design and equiptment as McLaren but Lotus have to make their own software. Williams and Red Bull have the other most used Sims, however the new Mercedes one is also starting to come true to form. Caterham once they get a propper facility that is their own will have a sim based uppon a aircraft grade sim capsule.

Marussia use the McLaren sim at present, and Sauber have used the Toyota sim a couple of times in the past couple years.

Toro Rosso have plans for one in Faenza, but this building is still to be built, based on the Red Bull one presumably. Force India have been looking at expanding into local feilds so they can have a CFD, Tunnel and McLaren based simulator all in one place with a fitness suite as well, but are having problems buying the land.

I think the Simulator will be where the 2012 season is won or lost, as the team that is able to develop their car in the simulator and have more or less the same numbers in CFD, Tunnel and Simulator and can get about 99.99% of those numbers translated into real world performance will be the winners.

The tools and how they are used, and what a bad workman blames and all.

Its not the size of the hammer, its how its used, and i think thatthe guys in Maranello are forgetting that its not about the best or the fastest, its about the methods used. If Ferrari focused on process and method in the design team and the rest of their R&D tools they would find a second in about a couple of weeks. Most teams are now grasping what was becoming apparent in 2009/2010, its not the ammount of updates, its the quality of them. I must say that Sauber and Williams have grasped this consept this year so far to their 2011 showings.

Newey said that this years definitive exhaust layout would be found quickly, within the first 5 races or so, maybes earlier and would be found not by a top team. Seems that he was right with the Sauber solution whitch will now be copied more for China and more coming for Spain id guess. Then the teams can work on the rest of their cars philosiphy in detail. Or waste time in a court arguing about a DRS activated F-Duct, whitch i think is gonna happen sooner than later im afraid to say.

[Crucial_Xtreme]

Ferrari have the best, AMD and Kapersky upgraded the Ferrari facility last year and is now just ahead of the Wirth/Marussia one that was designed to be at full speed all year round as this way Virgin were to make the fist all and only CFD "Winner" in F1. Ferrari only have a .5% advantage over the Wirth one.

Ferrari havnt upgraded their simulater since it came into being in 2004, it has been given minor updates yes, but not a upgrade, Mclaren use thei simulator the best and have the best Simulator as Lotus went to them for the exact same design and equiptment as McLaren but Lotus have to make their own software. Williams and Red Bull have the other most used Sims, however the new Mercedes one is also starting to come true to form. Caterham once they get a propper facility that is their own will have a sim based uppon a aircraft grade sim capsule.

Marussia use the McLaren sim at present, and Sauber have used the Toyota sim a couple of times in the past couple years.

Toro Rosso have plans for one in Faenza, but this building is still to be built, based on the Red Bull one presumably. Force India have been looking at expanding into local feilds so they can have a CFD, Tunnel and McLaren based simulator all in one place with a fitness suite as well, but are having problems buying the land.

I think the Simulator will be where the 2012 season is won or lost, as the team that is able to develop their car in the simulator and have more or less the same numbers in CFD, Tunnel and Simulator and can get about 99.99% of those numbers translated into real world performance will be the winners.

The tools and how they are used, and what a bad workman blames and all.

Its not the size of the hammer, its how its used, and i think thatthe guys in Maranello are forgetting that its not about the best or the fastest, its about the methods used. If Ferrari focused on process and method in the design team and the rest of their R&D tools they would find a second in about a couple of weeks. Most teams are now grasping what was becoming apparent in 2009/2010, its not the ammount of updates, its the quality of them. I must say that Sauber and Williams have grasped this consept this year so far to their 2011 showings.

Newey said that this years definitive exhaust layout would be found quickly, within the first 5 races or so, maybes earlier and would be found not by a top team. Seems that he was right with the Sauber solution whitch will now be copied more for China and more coming for Spain id guess. Then the teams can work on the rest of their cars philosiphy in detail. Or waste time in a court arguing about a DRS activated F-Duct, whitch i think is gonna happen sooner than later im afraid to say.

Do you have some sort of link for the Ferrari upgrades? I know Fry talked about upgrading but I don't recall seeing anything definitive.

[aduka11]

2008 nose hole...2010 wheel fairings...2012 (i dont know what it is called) but the multi-element part of the rear wing where the endplate and the wings meet...

Neither of these brought some gain...

Wheel fairings were removed shortly after their introduction.

If they were successful, other teams would copy it wouldn't they?

Hole in the nose was introduced to correct the flaw Ferrari had during 2007/08...To increase Front-end grip in slower corners...and was used only on some tracks.

And those aren't some big innovations...

I'm talking about innovations like F-duct, EBD, Mass damper...

And to be specific im talking about Ferrari after Todt, Brawn, Schumacher and Byrne era...not Ferrari in its whole history..

[bhall]

The wheel fairings were banned after nearly every team had adopted them in one form or another. The same is true of the outboard mirrors Ferrari introduced with the 248 F1.

And the hole in the nose of the F2008 had absolutely nothing to do with grip in slow-speed corners. In fact, the exact opposite is true of that development.

Let's also not forget the flexy rear wing on the 248 F1. Though weeded out of the regulations, I think it's safe to say that the concept left an indelible mark. (The F2007 even had a flexy tea tray and flexy barge boards for the first race that year, and those gave them a full second over every other car. The 2007 season would have looked vastly different had those features on the Ferrari not been "clarified" by Charlie Whiting.)

The point is that not everything is flashy like the DDD, EBD or F-duct. It's more often the stuff you don't see that makes all the difference in the world.

[raymondu999]

Those were the 2009 wheel fairings though - the 2010 wheel fairings which amozouris mentioned wasn't copied.

[bhall]

Actually, the seeds for that version of the wheel fairings were sowed on the rear wheels of the 248 F1 before being introduced properly in 2007. The only reason why the 2010 version wasn't copied is because wheels were homologated after the first race that year; teams were prohibited from adopting them. But, many adopted them last year, and some are still using them. They've only fallen out of favor because of the FIA's ever-tightening restrictions on wheels.

EDIT: While not exactly innovative, I'd certainly call Ferrari's 2010 exhaust aperture gills a novel concept. It's one that many teams have put to good use since then.

[ESPImperium]

Ferrari have the best, AMD and Kapersky upgraded the Ferrari facility last year and is now just ahead of the Wirth/Marussia one that was designed to be at full speed all year round as this way Virgin were to make the fist all and only CFD "Winner" in F1. Ferrari only have a .5% advantage over the Wirth one.

Ferrari havnt upgraded their simulater since it came into being in 2004, it has been given minor updates yes, but not a upgrade, Mclaren use thei simulator the best and have the best Simulator as Lotus went to them for the exact same design and equiptment as McLaren but Lotus have to make their own software. Williams and Red Bull have the other most used Sims, however the new Mercedes one is also starting to come true to form. Caterham once they get a propper facility that is their own will have a sim based uppon a aircraft grade sim capsule.

Marussia use the McLaren sim at present, and Sauber have used the Toyota sim a couple of times in the past couple years.

Toro Rosso have plans for one in Faenza, but this building is still to be built, based on the Red Bull one presumably. Force India have been looking at expanding into local feilds so they can have a CFD, Tunnel and McLaren based simulator all in one place with a fitness suite as well, but are having problems buying the land.

I think the Simulator will be where the 2012 season is won or lost, as the team that is able to develop their car in the simulator and have more or less the same numbers in CFD, Tunnel and Simulator and can get about 99.99% of those numbers translated into real world performance will be the winners.

The tools and how they are used, and what a bad workman blames and all.

Its not the size of the hammer, its how its used, and i think thatthe guys in Maranello are forgetting that its not about the best or the fastest, its about the methods used. If Ferrari focused on process and method in the design team and the rest of their R&D tools they would find a second in about a couple of weeks. Most teams are now grasping what was becoming apparent in 2009/2010, its not the ammount of updates, its the quality of them. I must say that Sauber and Williams have grasped this consept this year so far to their 2011 showings.

Newey said that this years definitive exhaust layout would be found quickly, within the first 5 races or so, maybes earlier and would be found not by a top team. Seems that he was right with the Sauber solution whitch will now be copied more for China and more coming for Spain id guess. Then the teams can work on the rest of their cars philosiphy in detail. Or waste time in a court arguing about a DRS activated F-Duct, whitch i think is gonna happen sooner than later im afraid to say.

Do you have some sort of link for the Ferrari upgrades? I know Fry talked about upgrading but I don't recall seeing anything definitive.

There was nothing definitive, but Frys comments were more or less taken as the confirmation in my eyes that Ferrari upgraded to have the "best" tools in the sport. Id recon they wouldnt want to publisise, and if the companies involved wanted to publisise, they wouldnt be able to with confedenciality clauses.

However if the F2012 was a kick out the park success they would make public upgrades and who did them.

[Crucial_Xtreme]

There was nothing definitive, but Frys comments were more or less taken as the confirmation in my eyes that Ferrari upgraded to have the "best" tools in the sport. Id recon they wouldnt want to publisise, and if the companies involved wanted to publisise, they wouldnt be able to with confedenciality clauses.

However if the F2012 was a kick out the park success they would make public upgrades and who did them.

I have it on pretty good reliable word from someone in the CFD industry that in fact Ferrari is still far behind others in CFD. 2% correlation error is acceptable and I'm told Ferrari approached 15% in many cases. I'm hearing throughout the summer break there's intentions to start upgrades.


Back on topic, Lotus said today they expect 0.2s from their China upgrades.

[WhiteBlue]

I will go out on a limb and say that in early 2012 two things will get the main attention.

1. exhaust solutions, you need to change the direction the exhaust gasses take at the end pipe from upward to downward. And then you have to have them hit something to produce downforce.

2. front and rear wing F-ducts

Other than that you obviously need to set up your car correctly to suit the tyres but those with more downforce will always find this easier.

[godlameroso]

I will go out on a limb and say that in early 2012 two things will get the main attention.

1. exhaust solutions, you need to change the direction the exhaust gasses take at the end pipe from upward to downward. And then you have to have them hit something to produce downforce.

You'd think that, but no, the exhaust gasses don't have to "hit" anything to produce downforce. The exhaust gasses just have to "interact" with the surrounding air stream to gain their benefit. It essentially acts as a magnifier for any vortex, provided you have a way to aim the exhausts towards the center of said vortex. Now you can have a strong vortex that doesn't interact with any relevant or useful part of bodywork, ala Ferrari, or Lotus F.E.E.(wasn't very effective at low speed in this case) and end up with a dud.