Strange going-ons at Red Bull

[segedunum]

....in a thread that isn't about armchair expertise on drivers but about the Red Bull management going-ons.

Twist this any way you want but there is ample evidence to question Sebastian Vettel, and how good he really is is important with regards to why Red Bull are having to engineer excuses and race winning situations for him. Not all the time mind you, but often enough.

In the case of Vettel he has triumphed in the face of much adversity of the engineering side and it is understandable that he feels some grim joy when he eventually came through to reap the fair benefits of his undoubtable speed.

What the hell is that about?

On topic I wonder what will happen to Ciaron Pilbeam, the race engineer who not only failed to relay the warning to Webber that he was going to be passed by Vettel but also advised Webber to use his overtaking button to repel the pass from Vettel. He deliberately screwed Horner and Marko in their management and if they have all their marbles in the right place they ought to punish him for the sabotage.

On topic? Well I for one hadn't heard that Webber's race engineer had done that, and secondly, why the hell would he assuming that's true, which I doubt? We come right back to square one here because we've established that there was no reason whatsoever for Webber to let Vettel past, other than Red Bull's political frustration at Vettel being second again.

Red Bull had a guaranteed one-two and they've said they don't care in what order, Vettel was under no pressure from Hamilton, the gaps and lap times had remained constant which didn't show anyone being pressurised, Webber was not slower and Vettel was not faster apart from three mystery laps and the fuel saving explanation doesn't stand up to any kind of scrutiny because of that.

[Richard]

Sebastian says sorry. Mark does not.
June 3, 2010 by joesaward

Red Bull Racing has announced that drivers Mark Webber and Sebastian Vettel met today in Milton Keynes with team principal Christian Horner, chief technical officer Adrian Newey and Red Bull motorsport consultant Helmut Marko.

Am I correct in thnking that Marko is also Vettel's agent?

If so, that sort of conflict of interest can seriously undermine the team, because Marko could use his position of influence to promote his driver for personal gain at the expense of the team.

I wonder if Vettel was in line to get a win bonus, and his agent might get 10% slice of that. No surprise that the agent gets on the radio to ask Webber to move over.

[marcush.]

he is unofficially but de facto boss of the REDBULL F1 operations ,Horner has to report on a daily(!) basis to him...
he is head of the driver development programme so in fact Vettel is his protege ,and the proof that his work has led to a World championship....so in effect he is mentor of Vettel ,wich might be even more than manager as he is empowered to do the calls to benefit Vettels and therefore his very own interests...

[lebesset]

vettel is reported not to have an agent

[WhiteBlue]

Am I correct in thnking that Marko is also Vettel's agent?

If so, that sort of conflict of interest can seriously undermine the team, because Marko could use his position of influence to promote his driver for personal gain at the expense of the team.

I wonder if Vettel was in line to get a win bonus, and his agent might get 10% slice of that. No surprise that the agent gets on the radio to ask Webber to move over.

This is pure speculation and has nothing to do with the reality. Neither Marko nor Horner used to have a radio connection to the drivers. That was reported several times, but Horner will have a direct radio link in the future due to Ciaron Pilbeam's failure to convey the messages of the team management.

Sebastian Vettel used to have a sponsorship contract with Red Bull from 2003 to 2009 which supported his drives first in Formula BMW, F3, world series by Renault, as a test driver for BMW, for STR in 2008 and in 2009 for races in RBR. It is safe to assume that he was additionally paid by the F1 teams he drove for from 2007-2009.

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 84847.html

In August last year he entered into a new two year contract with Red Bull until 2011 which has options for both sides to 2012. He has no manager and does his own business deals as Gerhard Berger did.

http://www.spox.com/de/sport/formel1/10 ... -bull.html

Yesterday it was reported that Vettel's contract will be extended to 2015 due to rival teams making several offers for his services. The reason Red Bull want Vettel is because he is quick and has a huge long term potential due to his youth. They know very well that he would be snapped up by Mercedes or Ferrari at the snip of a Finger if he were available.

They obviously value Vettel higher than Webber as a driver due to the potential. Marko is on record saying that Webber's contract should only be over one year so that it would come up for renewal next year again.

Although there are different driver market values attached to the drivers that doesn't mean that the promotional values of the two drivers are necessarily different. Webber fits the Red Bull image of extreme sport very well and could be even better than Vettel as a current promoter of the product although they expect Vettel to be retained for a longer time.

[WhiteBlue]

Webber has now been confirmed at Red Bull for 2011 as predicted by Helmut Marko. This also confirms that Marko is still very much in control of the team.

Interestingly Helmut Marko, the Red Bull adviser, says that the drivers are now under orders to let each other through if an incident like that happens again. It will be interesting to see how that works out.
...
I can see the logic in the line of argument that what Red Bull was trying to do last weekend was to secure a 1-2 finish by getting Vettel ahead of Webber, who was the slower of the two on the day, not to favour Vettel but because it thought the result was at risk.

James Allan confirms my view of the whole Turkey stramash. Red Bull will enforce their team order for the drivers rule of engagement. The slower driver cannot impede a faster driver but has to let him pass like being lapped. Had this rule been applied in Turkey the team would now have 25 points more on the score board.

You do at the time what you think is right, and in that case you would do it again because you thought it was right.

I had already passed Mark and then tried to come slowly back to the right. At that time I was the leading car and then usually the leader dictates when to go.

I see this as confirmation of the special RoE in effect at Red Bull.

Also interesting is the Formula1.com clip of the race.

The moment Vettel dives down the inside Pilbeam is heared saying:

Use your overtaking button for boost on the straight

This clearly makes no sense considering he was advised by the team to tell Webber not to fight Vettel. The Pilbeam message practically is the 100% opposite to what he was supposed to say.

[rayden]

i think seb is full of it.

that is clearly rocky not cairon, no?

edit: my mistake, listened again, is def cairon

[Fil]

You do at the time what you think is right, and in that case you would do it again because you thought it was right.

I had already passed Mark and then tried to come slowly back to the right. At that time I was the leading car and then usually the leader dictates when to go.

I'm sure people will accept he was in the process of passing; but in no way was he clear of the vehicle he was attempting to overtake (otherwise there'd be no contact).

I respect Seb's first sentence though, and that's conducive of any driver. You have to back yourself when in the heat of the battle; go for it with no second doubting.



When a team makes mistakes, they learn from the experience for the future..

Seb: Next time Seb won't turn into the car he's in the process of overtaking until his car is completely clear of the other.
Red Bull: Red Bull will hire Seb a Nascar spotter!
Mark: Will learn to use the 'overtake boost' button earlier along the straight.

[mcdenife]

The moment Vettel dives down the inside Pilbeam is heared saying:

Ciaron Pilbeam wrote:Use your overtaking button for boost on the straight



This clearly makes no sense considering he was advised by the team to tell Webber not to fight Vettel. The Pilbeam message practically is the 100% opposite to what he was supposed to say.

Opposite of what exactly. This shows team Red Bull has not been telling the truth. Why would he be telling Mark to use the boost button if, as the team claim, they instructed him to tell Mark to let vettel pass. They are just looking to pin the blame on someone.
It now also transpires, according to Andrew Benson:

Red Bull said after the race that Webber had asked the team to slow Vettel down. But that is not accurate. Having noticed Vettel was quicker than him on the straight, Webber had actually asked whether Vettel was on the same engine settings as him.

On a side note:

James Allan confirms my view of the whole Turkey stramash.

James Allen does not 'confirm' your view, but agrees with the logic of Marko's claims (assuming these claims are true and can be implemented).
Personally I dont agree because what Marko's logic(?), JA's agreement or WB's 'confirmation', conveniently sidestep or ignore is that the cause of the crash in Turkey was not because the slower driver impeded the faster as per your "special RoE in effect at Red Bull" but because said faster(?) driver, impudently, rashly, inpatiently and stupidly turned into said slower driver. Button and Hamilton gave each other no more (or no less) room than Mark gave Vettel and yet neither took the other out. Why? Simply because neither turned in on the other.

[Mysticf1]

Marko's logic(?), JA's agreement or WB's 'confirmation', conveniently sidestep or ignore is that the cause of the crash in Turkey was not because the slower driver impeded the faster as per your "special RoE in effect at Red Bull" but because said faster(?) driver, impudently, rashly, inpatiently and stupidly turned into said slower driver. Button and Hamilton gave each other no more (or less) room than Mark gave Vettel and yet neither took the other out. Why? Simply because neither turned in on the other.

+1 A fact that is consistently ignored or dismissed.

[lebesset]

at the end of the day it looked clear to me that vettel tried to overtake , and continued to try to overtake , in a way that was clearly only going to succeed if webber pulled over and let him past
so he got what you would expect if you tried to squeeze past on the dirty side of the track
so webber was told he could have avoided the accident
so could vettel , and in my view it was his responsibility to do so

[WhiteBlue]

Marko's logic(?), JA's agreement or WB's 'confirmation', conveniently sidestep or ignore is that the cause of the crash in Turkey was not because the slower driver impeded the faster as per your "special RoE in effect at Red Bull" but because said faster(?) driver, impudently, rashly, inpatiently and stupidly turned into said slower driver. Button and Hamilton gave each other no more (or less) room than Mark gave Vettel and yet neither took the other out. Why? Simply because neither turned in on the other.

I guess this will remain a point of disagreement then. All the sources close to the team and the initial team comments blame Webber. The obvious and reasonable explanation for this is that indeed the Red Bull drivers were under order not to fight each other when one of them was ahead. Webber should have let Vettel through to the racing line once he was ahead.

Vettel was by no means executing that pass impudently, rashly, inpatiently and stupidly. He is much too intelligent for that. I guess we will have enough opportunities in the course of this season to evaluate the RoE at Red Bull. Marko in that interview clearly said that nothing has changed and that the drivers have only been told again what the team strategy is. So it should be possible to recognize the "special" rules from their future behavior on track. I will watch it and get back to this thread when more intelligence develops.

[Mysticf1]

lol, answer me this WB, if Vettel had not turned to the right...would he have gotten past and avoided a collision? If so does that not make his move an unintelligent error? Why is it Webbers responsibility to avoid a collision when there was arguably not enough time to move out of the way when he was already moving to the right anyway?

What comes out of Redbull and their so called rules of engagement have no relevance..there was ample room to get past if Vettel used his brain.

[Chaparral]

A spokesman for Red Bull and Vettel wrote:

The obvious and reasonable explanation for this is that indeed the Red Bull drivers were under order not to fight each other when one of them was ahead. Webber should have let Vettel through to the racing line once he was ahead.

Vettel was by no means executing that pass impudently, rashly, inpatiently and stupidly. He is much too intelligent for that. I guess we will have enough opportunities in the course of this season to evaluate the RoE at Red Bull. Marko in that interview clearly said that nothing has changed and that the drivers have only been told again what the team strategy is. So it should be possible to recognize the "special" rules from their future behavior on track. I will watch it and get back to this thread when more intelligence develops.

WB you havent changed as Strad says - unless its your view then everyone else is out of sync - even an amature viewer of racing would know if your trying to pass down the dirty side of the track then it isnt going to work - Vettel made a silly mistake (let alone whatever else "may" have gone on) - accept it and move on ace......................oh and you havent known me for several years!

[djos]

The problem was that Vettel's car, for all the claims to contrary, was not past as his rear wheels where still behind Webber's Front Wheels. I reckon had he bothered to look in his right hand mirror he would have seen this!