Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

[saviour stivala]

"The energy from K to H is unlimited" Yes that is what the flow chart shows, the flow chart also shows that engine to K as limited, as well as K to engine as limited. the K operates as a motor by being supplied either from ES or H, but the K operates as a generator by the engine (is powered/rotated by crankshaft) and it operates this way when the brake pedal is pressed.

[Cwesh]

"The energy from K to H is unlimited" Yes that is what the flow chart shows, the flow chart also shows that engine to K as limited, as well as K to engine as limited. the K operates as a motor by being supplied either from ES or H, but the K operates as a generator by the engine (is powered/rotated by crankshaft) and it operates this way when the brake pedal is pressed.

The K to engine and engine to K are only limited in kW. There is no limit in MJ at that point of the flow chart. The MJ limits are for K to ES and ES to K.

[saviour stivala]

So now we have something else added to the “Honda harvests even under power” of which I said it was legal/permitted, as evidenced and done in Hungary by Vandoorne. What was added now is that Honda harvests 3MJ through the MGU-K and this on black on white. How Honda can or is allowed to harvest 1MJ more than is permitted by the MGU-K and gets it post the FIA flow measuring sensor is beyond me. I am saying this because when I look at the FIA energy flow chart the charts show flow from engine to MGU-K and from MGU-K to engine being stated as limited, and as I also understand it, it is because this flow is limited that a flow measuring sensor is mandated at the MGU-K.
Somebody mentioned “clipping”. Clipping happens when all the energy in the ES is used-up and the MGU-H clicks-in (comes on-line). Those that their turbo/MGU-H combination allows the MGU-H to click-in/comes on-line, their MGU-H will be rapidly re-charging the ES, those that their turbo/MGU-H combination does not allow this, they will normally have to revert to harvesting by the MGU-K under power/by burning fuel,

This could be the extra harvest mode. There are two things;
1) energy is sent from the K to the H and then on to the ES. The energy from K to H is unlimited as is the pathway from H to ES (K still limited to +/-120w power).
2) Honda have shown they are able to switch the H from generating to supercharging mode at a rate of 20 to 40 Hz (switches every 25 to 50 msec). This is the method of temporarily storing energy (inertia, electronics) so that the teams can bypass the ES <> K limits.

henry has some good posts on how the energy flows could be calculated based off of time delays for when the energy is sent to when it arrives at battery. From the data I've seen on a similar energy sensor used in FE, the sampling rate can be as high as 1000 Hz (1 msec), so fast enough by a wide margin for the known Honda switching rate.

"So that the teams can bypass the ES<>K limit" It is hard for me to believe that any of the four manufacturers (and not teams) will try or be tempted to try to bypass any limit imposed by the regulations.

[subcritical71]

"The energy from K to H is unlimited" Yes that is what the flow chart shows, the flow chart also shows that engine to K as limited, as well as K to engine as limited. the K operates as a motor by being supplied either from ES or H, but the K operates as a generator by the engine (is powered/rotated by crankshaft) and it operates this way when the brake pedal is pressed.

This is most likely where you will not agree but while ICE>K and K>ICE is limited it is limited in power (+/- 120 kW), not energy flow (MJ).

[Cwesh]

I don't see how SS could disagree. The diagram clearly says the limit is +/-120kW from engine to K. There is no mention of an energy limit at that point.

[henry]

"The energy from K to H is unlimited" Yes that is what the flow chart shows, the flow chart also shows that engine to K as limited, as well as K to engine as limited. the K operates as a motor by being supplied either from ES or H, but the K operates as a generator by the engine (is powered/rotated by crankshaft) and it operates this way when the brake pedal is pressed.

As I pointed out to you earlier ICE to/from K is not limited, or rather is not controlled. What is controlled is MGU-K control unit input/output. It is measured by the single sensor that measures all energy flow in and out of the MGU-K. It is an electrical measurement and it is allowed to be 1.0526x the 120kW nominal figure. (That’s 1/0.95). This allows for efficiency in the chain of equipment from the MGU-K CU to the ICE crankshaft.

The MGU-K operates as a generator any time the ERS control system tells it to. This usually happens under braking, and can happen when the ERS wants to spin up the turbo, charge the ES directly or charge the ES indirectly via the MGU-H. The first of these did not happen on Ricciardo’s PU after his MGU-K failed at Monaco. He kept pressing the brake pedal but the K did nothing because the ERS control system new it would be useless.

[saviour stivala]

@Henry. Thanks for your much appreciated explanation, made understanding the finer point of ERS workings much easier/clearer which only left three questions if you don’t mind.
So the ICE to/from MGU-K is not limited or controlled, but rather the MGU-K control box unit is, what inputs/output is limited/controlled, What does the MGU-K control box unit actually really limits/controls?.
Also, the MGU-K operates as a generator any time the ERS control system tells it to. And this usually happens under braking. Again that’s a good explanation. Questions remaining here. When, why and how does the ERS control system tells the MGU-K to act as a generator? And at what times other than under braking does the MGU-K acts as a generator?.

[OO7]

Unfortunately it isn’t allowed by the rules.

5.2 Other means of propulsion and energy recovery :
5.2.1 The use of any device, other than the engine described in 5.1 above, and one MGU-K, to
propel the car, is not permitted.

I forgot to add that the flywheel doesn't recover energy it stores it, so article 5.2.1 shouldn't be applicable.

Maybe its legal. I don't know, my interpretation is that it wouldn't be as a standalone unit. Meaning away from the existing MGU-H or turbo. I would say that in order to build up energy in the flywheel it would need to be recovered from somewhere else. I could be wrong, if you ask my wife I usually am!

subcritical, the flywheel wouldn't recover energy, it would only store it. The devices used to recover energy would be the MGU-K and MGU-H. Looking through the regs, there seems to be a few grey areas with the only possible stumbling block being article:
"5.2.4 - The MGU-H must be solely mechanically linked to the pressure charging system. This mechanical link must be of fixed speed ratio to the exhaust turbine and may be clutched."

A possible interpretation is that the bold section of 5.2.4 precludes the use of fluid or hydraulic coupling and nothing more. If that is a sound interpretation, then I think an integrated flywheel that isn't directly connected to or a secondary function of the pressure charging system should be possible.

[Big Tea]

I forgot to add that the flywheel doesn't recover energy it stores it, so article 5.2.1 shouldn't be applicable.

Maybe its legal. I don't know, my interpretation is that it wouldn't be as a standalone unit. Meaning away from the existing MGU-H or turbo. I would say that in order to build up energy in the flywheel it would need to be recovered from somewhere else. I could be wrong, if you ask my wife I usually am!

subcritical, the flywheel wouldn't recover energy, it would only store it. The devices used to recover energy would be the MGU-K and MGU-H. Looking through the regs, there seems to be a few grey areas with the only possible stumbling block being article:
"5.2.4 - The MGU-H must be solely mechanically linked to the pressure charging system. This mechanical link must be of fixed speed ratio to the exhaust turbine and may be clutched."

A possible interpretation is that the bold section of 5.2.4 precludes the use of fluid or hydraulic coupling and nothing more. If that is a sound interpretation, then I think an integrated flywheel that isn't directly connected to or a secondary function of the pressure charging system should be possible.

The 'may be clutched' part? a centrifugal (rollers?) type clutch with a magnetic 'lock'?

[PhillipM]

You wouldn't build a seperate flywheel ffs

You'd just make your turbine or MGU-H heavier.

[bill shoe]

Why would you put a clever/complicated additional flywheel on (or connected to) the H? Power and energy between the H and ES are already unlimited, so the H can send or retrieve all the energy it needs. So I don't see how an extra flywheel gets you around any limitation.

EDIT: I'll back this up by reposting gruntguru's definitive post on p. 123. Until someone demonstrates otherwise, this post is the clear and reliable reference for what is allowed:

"Energy" is useful stuff you can have sitting around in a bucket or a battery or a flywheel etc. There are many units used to quantify energy. The SI unit is the Joule and the F1 rules use MJ, (MegaJoule = 1,000,000 Joules).

"Power" is the rate at which energy is moved from A to B or converted from one form to another. For example an ICE takes chemical energy in the form of unburned fuel and atmospheric oxygen and converts it to heat energy. Some of this heat energy (up to 50%) is converted to mechanical energy by expanding the hot air against a piston. The unit of Power used in the F1 rules is the KiloWatt (KW) and is equal to an energy flow of 1 KJ/s (1,000 Joules per Second)

• the maximum POWER that can go between the MGU-K and everything else is limited. (to 120 KW)
• the maximum ENERGY that can go from the MGU-K to the ES is limited. (to 2MJ per lap)
• the maximum ENERGY that can go from the ES to the MGU-K is limited. (to 4MJ per lap)
• the maximum ENERGY that can go from the MGU-H to the MGU-K is unlimited.
• the maximum ENERGY that can go from the MGU-K to the MGU-H is unlimited.
• the maximum POWER that can go between the MGU-H and ES is unlimited.
• the maximum ENERGY that can go between the MGU-H and ES is unlimited

[saviour stivala]

"The energy from K to H is unlimited" Yes that is what the flow chart shows, the flow chart also shows that engine to K as limited, as well as K to engine as limited. the K operates as a motor by being supplied either from ES or H, but the K operates as a generator by the engine (is powered/rotated by crankshaft) and it operates this way when the brake pedal is pressed.

The K to engine and engine to K are only limited in kW. There is no limit in MJ at that point of the flow chart. The MJ limits are for K to ES and ES to K.

I might be wrong but I can only tell that of what I see.(rules/regulations/ energy flow chart).
Energy store, ES where all energy recovered by K and H is stored.
Max output per lap (MGU-K) 120KW.
Max energy released per lap (MGU-K) 4MJ.
Power output (HP) (MGU-K) 160HP for 33.33 seconds per lap.

[OO7]

You wouldn't build a seperate flywheel ffs

You'd just make your turbine or MGU-H heavier.

Why would you put a clever/complicated additional flywheel on (or connected to) the H? Power and energy between the H and ES are already unlimited, so the H can send or retrieve all the energy it needs. So I don't see how an extra flywheel gets you around any limitation.

My concern is that air entering the compressor and exhaust gases entering the turbine would sap energy via drag from the pressure charging system, making it less efficient, however I don't know how much of a problem that would be. Increasing the mass of the rotating parts of the pressure charging system would help maintain stored energy, however the energy required to spin the system would increase, making it less efficient also.

[OO7]

The 'may be clutched' part? a centrifugal (rollers?) type clutch with a magnetic 'lock'?

You've got me there Big Tea, I haven't the foggiest.

[hurril]

"The energy from K to H is unlimited" Yes that is what the flow chart shows, the flow chart also shows that engine to K as limited, as well as K to engine as limited. the K operates as a motor by being supplied either from ES or H, but the K operates as a generator by the engine (is powered/rotated by crankshaft) and it operates this way when the brake pedal is pressed.

The K to engine and engine to K are only limited in kW. There is no limit in MJ at that point of the flow chart. The MJ limits are for K to ES and ES to K.

I might be wrong but I can only tell that of what I see.(rules/regulations/ energy flow chart).
Energy store, ES where all energy recovered by K and H is stored.
Max output per lap (MGU-K) 120KW.
Max energy released per lap (MGU-K) 4MJ.
Power output (HP) (MGU-K) 160HP for 33.33 seconds per lap.

Still wrong.