2014 Spanish Grand Prix - Barcelona

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myurr
myurr
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Re: 2014 Spanish Grand Prix - Barcelona

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johnsonwax wrote:
gandharva wrote: If you simply ignore the fact that this years dominance is (up to this point) even bigger than any of the last 4 years
With heavy fuel loads, Lewis was 2s a lap faster than Ferrari at the end of P2. Didn't see times for Riccardo, though. Merc has actually expanded the gap on the rest of the field, with the possible exception of RB. I think if they let Lewis open it up, we'd be facing 1998 Australia. The limit on engines is the only thing keeping him from lapping the field.

This is a catastrophe for F1. How do they balance this out? In 1998 they declared McLaren's advantage to be illegal. Clearly that can't happen here. Ferrari and Renault cars are just screwed - there's nothing they can do to move past 3rd, except possibly at some unique tracks like Monaco. And how do the other Merc powered cars deal with this? Same engine and they're not making up any ground.

The problem isn't necessarily that the other teams can't engineer their way to compete, it's that the F1 rules are preventing a certain amount of that from happening. Yeah, same rules for everyone, everyone agreed to that, etc but the outcome is what matters, and if you have a huge imbalance, it stops being interesting to fans, and it stops being something worth investing in for teams.

I want Lewis to win, but this state isn't good.
The reason the other Merc engined teams are not making any ground is that it isn't simply the engine giving Mercedes the advantage. In past years Red Bull and the other teams have chased downforce, RBR in particular went for downforce at all costs giving up straight line speed in preference to going round the corners more quickly. This year they're all still on that page. Red Bull have even spoken publicly about how they have the best chassis and the most downforce and if their engine partner could get it together then they'd be dominating.

However Mercedes have taken a different path and have been chasing after aero efficiency. In spain they're fastest in all three sectors, despite this being an aero dominated track. They have almost as much peak downforce as Red Bull, so they're just about as quick through the corners, but do so with much less drag. That is why they're routinely near the top of the speed trap figures, it's not just engine power.

The internals of the Mercedes are night and day ahead of the opposition. Their intercooler minimises drag. Their exhaust gives up a small amount of peak power in preference for significantly reducing internal drag. Their split turbo gives some engine advantages but just as importantly allows them to move the gearbox forward improving airflow around the car. Their nose treatment is unique on the grid, and from that point backwards they have the most refined aero package of any team. On top of that they are the team most on top of their engine with the best installation and an aero package designed in collaboration with the engine and cooling teams. They also have the best suspension system. This year's domination isn't about engine power alone. It's the culmination of several years work and the coming together of all the various aspects of the car as a single whole package, and none of the other teams are going to be able to catch them this year.

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Kiril Varbanov
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Re: 2014 Spanish Grand Prix - Barcelona

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Some people must have been really bored by the lack of events and decided to run some rumors.
While I've never had any disrespect to anyone, running unproved news is a sign to bad or no journalism.
http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/alons ... i-rumours/

Citing some 'sources' have become really popular phrase, and everybody seems to be exploiting it. In the meantime, Rosberg has extended his contract with Mercedes until 2016, according to Tobi from AMuS.

bhall
bhall
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Re: 2014 Spanish Grand Prix - Barcelona

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myurr wrote:The reason the other Merc engined teams are not making any ground is that it isn't simply the engine giving Mercedes the advantage.
[...]
Actually, I think a pretty decent argument can be made that Mercedes' PU is the basis for every advantage the team has over the field. It's just that not all of it has to do with power or driveability or fuel economy.

The split-turbo layout and log-type manifold make for a very diminutive PU, and that allows for very tight packaging, which aerodynamicists love. We saw a similar strategy at Red Bull from 2009 to 2013, as the Renault V8's minimal cooling requirements gave Newey and the gang all sorts of room for aerodynamics. The engine freeze then locked in that advantage just as this season's homologation rules have locked in an advantage for Mercedes.

That's great for them, and they truly deserve all the credit in the world. But, it sure does make things boring for everyone else.

Waywardism
Waywardism
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Re: 2014 Spanish Grand Prix - Barcelona

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Kiril Varbanov wrote:Some people must have been really bored by the lack of events and decided to run some rumors.
While I've never had any disrespect to anyone, running unproved news is a sign to bad or no journalism.
http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/alons ... i-rumours/

Citing some 'sources' have become really popular phrase, and everybody seems to be exploiting it. In the meantime, Rosberg has extended his contract with Mercedes until 2016, according to Tobi from AMuS.
Most of these 'rumours' are created in press offices. Journalists see something, such as Brawn's visit to Maranello, then start talking about what that might mean and suddenly it's a rumour.

Of the 3 rumours talked about on that page I think that's the only one that's even remotely likely, though judging from Montezemolo's comments it's very doubtful. There's no chance that Merc will be looking to replace Lewis or Nico any time soon. Alonso's only real option is to stay with Ferrari until they or another team, most likely Mclaren, finds their way back to the front of the grid. And I don't think Newey will ever work for another F1 team, I think I remember him saying as much himself a few years ago.

komninosm
komninosm
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Re: 2014 Spanish Grand Prix - Barcelona

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Is it me or is Qualifying a bit lame today? Mercedes way too fast?

Oops that was actually Practice 3 >.<
Last edited by komninosm on 10 May 2014, 12:11, edited 1 time in total.

zonk
zonk
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Re: 2014 Spanish Grand Prix - Barcelona

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Time machine?

Waywardism
Waywardism
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Re: 2014 Spanish Grand Prix - Barcelona

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That was FP, Qualifying starts in 2 hours.

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mikeerfol
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Re: 2014 Spanish Grand Prix - Barcelona

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I'm surprised to see McLaren ahead of Red Bull. Low temperatures perhaps?

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Juzh
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Re: 2014 Spanish Grand Prix - Barcelona

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mikeerfol wrote:I'm surprised to see McLaren ahead of Red Bull. Low temperatures perhaps?
None of RB drivers got a clear traffic free run.

komninosm
komninosm
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Re: 2014 Spanish Grand Prix - Barcelona

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Waywardism wrote:That was FP, Qualifying starts in 2 hours.
zonk wrote:Time machine?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyltK6pmJGg

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iotar__
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Re: 2014 Spanish Grand Prix - Barcelona

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komninosm wrote:Is it me or is Qualifying a bit lame today? Mercedes way too fast?
Why lame? Nothing new, it's been like that most of the time in F1 (modern times). Fuel qualifying clouding results shouldn't count. Gap is huge and surprising. I'd like to hear from Renault how close to 100% they are here, at least Red Bull engine whining might cease and should be redirected towards under-performing drivers :evil: .

They need to measure time for all the other teams relative to third place not first, it would look clearer. At least behind Merc something interesting can happen - small gaps + tyres. Massa, Grosjean - surprises. Looking at FP2 times, over one lap: Force India - too slow. McLaren - too fast.

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Donuts
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Re: 2014 Spanish Grand Prix - Barcelona

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n smikle wrote:
Donuts wrote:Lotus has taken a big step, RG will be challenging the Mclarens (look where Maldonado is) if he can have a trouble free FP3.
Maldy is BEAST around Barcelona so...
Let's wait and see, FP3 looks promising, but I didn't have time to watch it (only results)or compare with yesterday.
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Shakeman
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Re: 2014 Spanish Grand Prix - Barcelona

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bhall wrote:
myurr wrote:The reason the other Merc engined teams are not making any ground is that it isn't simply the engine giving Mercedes the advantage.
[...]
Actually, I think a pretty decent argument can be made that Mercedes' PU is the basis for every advantage the team has over the field. It's just that not all of it has to do with power or driveability or fuel economy.

The split-turbo layout and log-type manifold make for a very diminutive PU, and that allows for very tight packaging, which aerodynamicists love. We saw a similar strategy at Red Bull from 2009 to 2013, as the Renault V8's minimal cooling requirements gave Newey and the gang all sorts of room for aerodynamics. The engine freeze then locked in that advantage just as this season's homologation rules have locked in an advantage for Mercedes.

That's great for them, and they truly deserve all the credit in the world. But, it sure does make things boring for everyone else.
Drivability could certainly be the reason for Merc's speed with the ability not to break traction around these long corners in Spain. The two Mercs look incredibly well planted round the lap whereas from Ferrari down the grid the cars look like they're a real handful with only RB looking like the true best of the rest. Macca have showed a bit of pace but Button has no grip at the rear by comparison the onboards from Ham and Ros show the car just going where they want it to go. Alonso's onboard from yesterday looked like the car was just sliding round the corners with lots of steering inputs.

Boring? Dunno, there's lots of inter-team rivalries that are incredibly interesting all the way down through the field. A fast starting Massa and Alonso could jump a RB or two at the start, Grosjean looks like he's got pace and Rosberg had ERS issues in FP3 so could it affect his race? Also, Rosberg has been doing lots of practice starts so he seems to think it's going to be critical.

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Steven
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Re: 2014 Spanish Grand Prix - Barcelona

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As ever, follow qualifying and chat along at http://www.f1technical.net/live/

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atanatizante
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Re: 2014 Spanish Grand Prix - Barcelona

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Image

RB has reduced the to speed deficit from 20km/h down to around 10km/h ... so W05 "muscles" is not all down to the PU side, isn`t it?
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