Alternative F1 fuels

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Mikey_s
Mikey_s
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Re: Hydrogen in F1?

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Auto,
simply put the 3 laws of thermodynamics can be expressed as
1) you can't win, you can only break even (at best!)
2) You can only break even at absolute zero
3) You can never get to absolute zero
in summary if you want to find out what you are doing in respect of true efficiency you need to compare all the energy inputs versus the energy outputs and ultimately that is the only fair comparison.

I don't contest the use of ethanol; it clearly CAN be used as an automotive fuel, the issue is whether it is better than a given alternative from the perspective of energy efficiency.

There was a major study carried out by the European Commission (in conjunction with an oil industry trade association - but a very reputable one), which you can view here;
http://ies.jrc.ec.europa.eu/well-to-wheels-analysis

The conclusions are very interesting in respect of CO2 avoidance and not necessarily what you might expect. Not least of which is that even if ethanol was technically suitable, there simply is not sufficient agricultural land to replace the European fuel pool - by a long way!

Going back to the thermodynamics; even if you use waste cellulose it needs to be grown, harvested (probably using machinery using an ICE!), fermented, distilled, transported and used. Every step of the way you need to evaluate the efficiency of each process and a guestimate is that each phase will be less than 80% efficient, so ultimately you will get 0.8 * 0.8 * 0.8 * 0.8... and so on, leading to an ultimate efficiency which is rather low.

Just to illustrate the point;
Fermentation is a chemical process with no energy input and distillation of ethanol is at below 80 degrees so how do you conclude a larger energy input to output.
The fermenter must be constructed (that takes energy), the water used in the fermentation must be produced and distributed (that takes energy), the collection of the cellulose takes energy, as does the preparation (cropping and chopping), the waste must be disposed of - do you burn it or bury it?; the waste water must be treated (that takes energy). So there are energy inputs to derive your ethanol, and the distillation also takes energy (lots of it - and where does it come from, and what is the efficiency of generation and distribution?). Scaled up to a commercial process there would certainly be energy inputs.

I won't try and defend the oil companies, but they are not the problem... to draw another analogy they are simply the drug dealers; the demand comes from you and I; the addicts - if we didn't buy it they wouldn't sell it and MOST oil companies must purchase a significant proportion of their crude oil from government/state owened production facilities e.g. Venezuela, Middle East or Russia. It's not necessarily them who are pushing this, it's government that is the major interest here in respect of tax revenues (bit like smoking really... indefensible, but sooooo profitable for the government)

In summary; I'm not anti-biofuels, but we must start from where we are today and ensure that any changes really do achieve imporvements over today's situation and that the changes really do achieve what was intended.

Just as another example; I was in Sweden recently (a notoriously 'Green' country!). I noticed a large number of cars which were badged as dual fuel and asked my host what that was about: It seems the government offers tax breaks to consumers to purchase such cars which are equipped to use bioethanol based fuels. The petrol stations sell 'biofuel' at a price substantially below regular gasoline (another government tax break!). I asked my host where the ethanol comes from... Brazil!!! So the government offers tax breaks to purchase a new car whcih is less fuel efficient than a regular car; offer the buyer cheaper fuel, that is less efficient and transports the fuel half way around the world in order to do so! That is crazy and not 'green' at all - it's about as sensible as GW Bush's ethanol dash of a few years back that was only designed to reduce the US reliance on the Middle East, and led to people starving in Mexico.
:roll:

The only way to force the producers to change is to tax the user and force them to pay if they want to pollute... then people will buy more fuel efficient vehicles - deeply politically unpopular, but the problem is not THEM, it's US.
Mike

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raceman
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Re: Hydrogen in F1?

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:)

nice explanation

autogyro
autogyro
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Re: Hydrogen in F1?

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Indeed it was a good explanation. It only missed two points of interest as well.

Fossil fuels release huge amounts of CO2 that have been locked up for millions of years. Ethanol production and use does not, it simply releases CO2 fixed in plants in the growing cycle and gives no increase at all.

The amount of energy used to drill for and extract oil, transport it around the world ,refine it and then transport the products from it around the world is of an order of magnitude vastly higher than the production and use of ethanol.

I do agree with the problems noted in regard to the effects on food crops and the political economical effects. However these are man made problems, not scientific or ecological ones. There is plenty of growing space in the world and many alternative biological sources of ethanol, many of which use our waste products.
Unfortunately world economics is based on exploitation and the needs of Zionist banking not on sensible human development.

Mikey_s
Mikey_s
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Re: Hydrogen in F1?

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Fossil fuels release huge amounts of CO2 that have been locked up for millions of years. Ethanol production and use does not, it simply releases CO2 fixed in plants in the growing cycle and gives no increase at all.
This was the whole point of the Well to Wheel study; In general you are correct, - fossil derived fuels are releasing carbon that has been sequestered for millions of years,whereas biomass derived sources are 'recycling' CO2 from the atmosphere. BUT... they take energy to produce and hey are energy intensive processes. It is simply not correct to state that Ethanol production does not release CO2; the process is not, and cannot be, 100% efficient - it is forbidden by the laws of thermodynamics.

Energy is consumed in the production of the ethanol and normally the energy used is fossil derived - the issue is whether there is a nett benefit to doing it. One paper I read on the subject suggested that the most energy efficient use of biofuels is to burn the product directly (e.g. in a power station). By doing so you minimise the steps during which energy is lost due to the efficiency being low. So the answer is to build a wood fired power station next to a (sustainably managed) forest, chop the trees down and burn them. That way you get something in excess of 70% efficiency - far greater than production of ethanol.

I'll post another link as this is not an area that I am personally expert in, but one of the conclusions of the Well to wheel study was;
The conversion of biomass into conventional bio-fuels is not energy efficient; Ethanol and bio-diesel require more bio-energy than the fossil energy they save.
The slide show summary is interesting in many respects, I encourage you to check it out (it's got some much more positive conclusions than the one given above);
http://ies.jrc.ec.europa.eu/uploads/med ... 010307.pdf

In an effort to appear positive (or at least less negative :wink: ) there is the old cliche that the stone age didn't end because we ran out of stones... and the oil age will not end when we run out of oil. Newer technologies will emerge which will supplant our current fuels and ICE technology... the transition might be painful though and require that we take some personal responsibility for our emissions. Additionally, we need to take an intelligent approach and be certain that we follow the best route to success.
Mike

autogyro
autogyro
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Re: Hydrogen in F1?

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I think you are making a fundamental mistake here.
What have the rules of thermodynamics got to do with the production of ethanol?
The energy that produces plant and vegetable matter is sun light through photosynthesis. It is a chemical/biological process.
Fermentation of plant sugar into alcohol is a chemical process that produces heat and does not need any energy added. Ask any home brewer.
Distillation of Ethanol from the products of fermentation occurs at below 8o degrees, easily supplied from burning a small percentage of the cycled ethanol or using this small percentage in developed fuel cells to produce electricity for the process.
Of course there is a percentage gain. If this were not the case then any processing of any fuel would be pointless and an economic waste of time.
I think you are muddling thermodynamics with the laws applied to the conversion of energy, which is not the issue anyway.
Ethanol has already proven to be a suitable fuel for IC engines and a potential fuel for fuel cells. The economics are man made stumbling blocks not mathematical or scientific objections.
Fossil fuels use far more wasteful of energy, both in drilling, refining and distribution world wide. I seem to remember seeing huge specialized tankers that burn huge amounts of fossil fuel sailing all over the world. Ethanol would need a fraction of this distribution because of it's universal supply sources.
What temperatures are needed to crack oil!!!!
There really is no comparison and you are simply promoting the oil companies mantra.

xpensive
xpensive
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Re: Hydrogen in F1?

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Turning cabohydrates into ethanol in order to fuel IC-engines is possibly the worst monstrosity of tax-subsidies ever dreamed up by any politician, when the energy xchange is in the 10% range when everything is considered.

Besides, there's simply not food products around to allow for a production of more than a miniscule part of the fossile-fuel used.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

autogyro
autogyro
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Re: Hydrogen in F1?

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xpensive wrote:Turning cabohydrates into ethanol in order to fuel IC-engines is possibly the worst monstrosity of tax-subsidies ever dreamed up by any politician, when the energy xchange is in the 10% range when everything is considered.

Besides, there's simply not food products around to allow for a production of more than a miniscule part of the fossile-fuel used.
It may well be the worst tax subsidy ever but using ethanol in IC engines is far far better than using fossil fuel of any kind.
Please explain in detail this 10% energy range you quote.
You will soon find that fossil fuels have a much worse percentage, when everything is considered.
The trouble is the oil companies write all the songs and we all tend to believe their lies.

xpensive
xpensive
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Re: Hydrogen in F1?

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If you are inclined to oil-company conspiracy theories and buy the hogwash about the man-made climate effect,
then I guess ethanol at 3 EUR/liter makes certain sense.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

Mikey_s
Mikey_s
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Re: Hydrogen in F1?

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Auto,
read the JRC report summary I linked... and please debate the post, not the poster!
I think you are making a fundamental mistake here.
What have the rules of thermodynamics got to do with the production of ethanol?
The energy that produces plant and vegetable matter is sun light through photosynthesis. It is a chemical/biological process.
Fermentation of plant sugar into alcohol is a chemical process that produces heat and does not need any energy added. Ask any home brewer.
Thermodynamics govern all systems, includeing our own planet and everything we do on it. Crops need to be planted; That is not done without expending energy. They require fertiliser; more energy to produce them. Collecting the crop requires more energy and processing it into a form that can be fermented also requires energy, as does extraction of the ethanol at the end. Fermentation also emits substantial amounts of CO2. All of this is taken into account in the WTW study.
Fossil fuels use far more wasteful of energy, both in drilling, refining and distribution world wide. I seem to remember seeing huge specialized tankers that burn huge amounts of fossil fuel sailing all over the world. Ethanol would need a fraction of this distribution because of it's universal supply sources.
All of the energy used in the production of crude oil and transport is taken into account in the above study, ditto for biofuels (including ethanol!)...

Yes, VLCCs use vast amounts of energy, but they also carry vast amounts off crude oil... thus the unit transport contribution is very small (that's why they build HUGE ships!!).

There really is no comparison and you are simply promoting the oil companies mantra.
There is a comparison and I gave you the link to it... You should read it, the conclusions are clear... Biofuels can give savings in both energy and GHG emission, but currently do not. If you wish to debate the facts from the WTW study please feel free, it isn't my study, I was not involved in it. Otherwise present data that refute the findings of the study, but please make it factual and steer clear of opinion.

The WTW study set out the following objectives;
Establish, in a transparent and objective manner, a consensual well-to-wheels energy use and Greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions assessment of a wide range of automotive fuels and powertrains relevant to Europe in 2010 and beyond.
Consider the viability of each fuel pathway and estimate the associated macro-economic costs.
Have the outcome accepted as a reference by all relevant stakeholders.
The results of that study refute a number of your statements and you have so far failed to present cogent arguments that would demonstrate that study to be invalid. The first version was published in 2003 and it is now on the 3rd iteration... to my knowledge nobody (even Friends of the Earth) is arguing that the study is a cover up.

Nobody is arguing that ethanol cannot be used - it clearly can... what is being debated is whether there is any benefit to do so.
Mike

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flynfrog
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Re: Hydrogen in F1?

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Excelnt post Mikey

one other problem with ethanol it cant be piped this is a rather larger problem in the states.

autogyro
autogyro
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Re: Hydrogen in F1?

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Mikey_s wrote:Auto,
read the JRC report summary I linked... and please debate the post, not the poster!
I think you are making a fundamental mistake here.
What have the rules of thermodynamics got to do with the production of ethanol?
The energy that produces plant and vegetable matter is sun light through photosynthesis. It is a chemical/biological process.
Fermentation of plant sugar into alcohol is a chemical process that produces heat and does not need any energy added. Ask any home brewer.
Thermodynamics govern all systems, includeing our own planet and everything we do on it. Crops need to be planted; That is not done without expending energy. They require fertiliser; more energy to produce them. Collecting the crop requires more energy and processing it into a form that can be fermented also requires energy, as does extraction of the ethanol at the end. Fermentation also emits substantial amounts of CO2. All of this is taken into account in the WTW study.
Fossil fuels use far more wasteful of energy, both in drilling, refining and distribution world wide. I seem to remember seeing huge specialized tankers that burn huge amounts of fossil fuel sailing all over the world. Ethanol would need a fraction of this distribution because of it's universal supply sources.
All of the energy used in the production of crude oil and transport is taken into account in the above study, ditto for biofuels (including ethanol!)...

Yes, VLCCs use vast amounts of energy, but they also carry vast amounts off crude oil... thus the unit transport contribution is very small (that's why they build HUGE ships!!).

There really is no comparison and you are simply promoting the oil companies mantra.
There is a comparison and I gave you the link to it... You should read it, the conclusions are clear... Biofuels can give savings in both energy and GHG emission, but currently do not. If you wish to debate the facts from the WTW study please feel free, it isn't my study, I was not involved in it. Otherwise present data that refute the findings of the study, but please make it factual and steer clear of opinion.

The WTW study set out the following objectives;
Establish, in a transparent and objective manner, a consensual well-to-wheels energy use and Greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions assessment of a wide range of automotive fuels and powertrains relevant to Europe in 2010 and beyond.
Consider the viability of each fuel pathway and estimate the associated macro-economic costs.
Have the outcome accepted as a reference by all relevant stakeholders.
The results of that study refute a number of your statements and you have so far failed to present cogent arguments that would demonstrate that study to be invalid. The first version was published in 2003 and it is now on the 3rd iteration... to my knowledge nobody (even Friends of the Earth) is arguing that the study is a cover up.

Nobody is arguing that ethanol cannot be used - it clearly can... what is being debated is whether there is any benefit to do so.
First an apology mike, thermodynamics can of course be applied to all systems in known existence and personal comment is not warranted, although it does seem common on this forum.
I do not believe that the conclusions drawn from the studies mentioned are the only possible conclusions. The systems under study are highly complex and there are factors taken into account that are constantly changing or improving.
"Biofuels can give savings in energy and GHG emissions but currently do not".
I agree, so the drive should be to develop ways to achieve this ideal by investing in biofuel production and use, instead of pandering to the fossil fuel lobby.
Fossil fuels will get progressively more expensive so the problem need not be simply about global warming or green issues. It might even prevent future wars.
I still believe that the studies you give for reference do not give a complete picture and leave out most of the economic and political factors that support or not certain fuel use.

autogyro
autogyro
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Re: Hydrogen in F1?

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flynfrog wrote:Excelnt post Mikey

one other problem with ethanol it cant be piped this is a rather larger problem in the states.
Not in California, where you can buy your own refinery with full support.


http://www.microfueler.com/

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flynfrog
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Re: Hydrogen in F1?

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ok what do you plan to feed it. Grain trucked in from the midwest. any idea how much it will take to fill a tank. Coming from the midwest I can tell the ethanol mandate was one of the worst things to happen to the environment. It drove up the price of corn to the point farmers are not rotating crops so they are adding more fertilizer. This ends up in our water supplies. The price of almost all food went up because the grain is either to expensive or the land is being used to grow corn.

autogyro
autogyro
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Re: Hydrogen in F1?

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flynfrog wrote:ok what do you plan to feed it. Grain trucked in from the midwest. any idea how much it will take to fill a tank. Coming from the midwest I can tell the ethanol mandate was one of the worst things to happen to the environment. It drove up the price of corn to the point farmers are not rotating crops so they are adding more fertilizer. This ends up in our water supplies. The price of almost all food went up because the grain is either to expensive or the land is being used to grow corn.
I can only suggest you read all the details on the link.
The political/economic problems associated with the incentive are a complex debate.
It is not however the fault of ethanol that the result is economic turmoil for the local greed merchants.
Sort it out is the slogan, not reams of figures and mathamatics.
Perhaps the grain farmers can justify their use of millions of gallons of fossil fuel for their equipment? I hear you say what else do they use? Try Ethanol you know it makes sense. Would not be vested interest now would it?

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flynfrog
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Re: Hydrogen in F1?

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autogyro wrote:
flynfrog wrote:ok what do you plan to feed it. Grain trucked in from the midwest. any idea how much it will take to fill a tank. Coming from the midwest I can tell the ethanol mandate was one of the worst things to happen to the environment. It drove up the price of corn to the point farmers are not rotating crops so they are adding more fertilizer. This ends up in our water supplies. The price of almost all food went up because the grain is either to expensive or the land is being used to grow corn.
I can only suggest you read all the details on the link.
The political/economic problems associated with the incentive are a complex debate.
It is not however the fault of ethanol that the result is economic turmoil for the local greed merchants.
Sort it out is the slogan, not reams of figures and mathamatics.
Perhaps the grain farmers can justify their use of millions of gallons of fossil fuel for their equipment? I hear you say what else do they use? Try Ethanol you know it makes sense. Would not be vested interest now would it?
They justify these use by the Govt providing subsides. I have no vested interest I don’t even own any oil stock.

Are you suggesting that farmers burn ethanol in the diesel tractors? Or create fertilizer from alcohol based substances. Neither makes sense. You can make all of the slogans you want but at the end of the day ill take cold hard numbers.

If you want me solution to the problem CNG.