Alternative F1 fuels

[010010011010]

Do you think using hydrogen in f1 would ever be viable? if the rules allowed it of course. And im NOT talking about hydrogen FUEL CELLS, but the same 2400cc v8s running on liquid hydrogen or even the gas form of it. It certainly would help speed up the development of the necessary systems to store it properly. It would also be a better green incentive for f1s image then a couple of green stripes on tyre's or the ill fated KERS.

If the storage was sorted out it would have a few advantages. Hydrogen has a very high energy density, well it is a rocket fuel! so potentially greater power outputs. But the perhaps the greatest advantage is also its greatest obstacle - its temperature - its a liquid at -252.87°C!

Of course that and its low density (its the least dense gas known to man) make it hard to store. if that was sorted the fuel could be used to cool the engine by being pumped through the radiators before being burned in the engine (just as NASA use it to cool the boosters before burning it) resulting in smaller or even no radiator openings on the car allowing the aerodynamics to be much more efficent.

lastly it could be used to precool the air to the engine making it more dense and increasing power output.

these are just some of my hair brained ideas, feel free to point out where im wrong

your thoughts and comments please

[flynfrog]

no for the reasons you posted not enough energy per stored volume insane tank needed to hold even a decent amount. Refueling would be almost impossible during a race. Crash saftey. Ect ect. It really is a terrible fuel for anything mobile

[SZ]

no for the reasons you posted not enough energy per stored volume insane tank needed to hold even a decent amount. Refueling would be almost impossible during a race.

True... but there's potential uses for it in very small amounts...

[010010011010]

Refueling technology isn't that much of an issue, the fuel these days goes in under pressure and the nozzle is locked in so not much there would change. anyway refueling is banned from next year so it doesnt really matter.
On the crash side of things, provided the tank was secured and protected sufficiently as they are at the moment it shouldn't explode. it'd be positioned between the engine and the diver which is pretty safe - when was the last time an engine and the cockpit got separated in a crash... and even then if there was a leak, hydrogen disperses very quickly, quicker than natural gas.
so it really come back to the tank, for which i have no solution, except that if hydrogen is more energy dense, you wouldnt need to burn as much of it to generate the same power... maybe..

[flynfrog]

You still cant fill that tank nearly as fast as gasoline. Im pretty sure you would need to cryo the tank to get enough fuel in.

In a crash you would have a pressurized tank full of flamable gas. The tank also has to be ridgid. Current gasoline fuel cells are rubber bladder to be flexibe and crack resistant a carbon or steel pressue vessel is not.

I have made rockets using cookies before that doesnt mean it would be a good choice for my car.

It is energy dense weight wise not volume wise. so you need a much bigger heavier tank. and you ahve to burn more per volume than gasoline. Not sure off the top of my head what pressure you would need to be equal with gasoline.

[Ciro Pabón]

The ideas about regenerative cooling are good, the problem could be that (globally thinking) you need more energy to condense and keep refrigerated the thing than the one you get by adiabatic cooling of intake air or from less drag from radiators (I would assume, based in thermodynamics) altough I haven't run any numbers. If I have the time, I will.

As we've said many times, the main problem with hydrogen as fuel for cars is that, nowadays, it is produced by steam reforming of natural gas or gasoline. This is an environmental nightmare because you produce sulfurs as hell and because you need to burn methane (a byproduct of the reaction) to keep the reaction going, at the tune of 200 Kjoules by mol, which is a lot. In the end is not efficient.

So, if you want to overcome the real problem of hydrogen as fuel, you should invent a more economic way to produce it out of algi or something like that. Electrolysis is hugely inefficient nowadays.

Once you overcome this obstacle, you're on your way to hydrogen as storage of energy. For the moment, even batteries are better, taking in account that you have a lot of losses when you produce, transmit and store electricity, and that the steam turbine at the electric station contaminates as much as the gasoline cars put together. It's easier to control, of course, because it's a central contamination point, but...

In the case of hydrogen, you can imagine that if you produce it out of gasoline or natural gas, is not precisely a replacement for gasoline or natural gas and that the idea that the car exhaust produces only water is a little naive, IMHO.

[ISLAMATRON]

electrons beat hydrogen any day

[010010011010]

the idea that the car exhaust produces only water is a little naive

oh yeah, i know its not 100% clean. sure even if you produced it form electrolysis using power from solar panels it wouldn't be emmission free, as there would still be NOX and all that crap that forms when you burn anything in oxygen.

the reason i like hydrogen over electric cars is that with electric cars you loose the fun IMO. Sure they're cleaner, will get you from A to B (possibaly quicker) and will end up being cheaper no doubt in the future, but for me theres no clutch-change-gear or even listening to the sound of the engine as it revs up.
theres also engine tuning or even engine fixing. and to me thats half the fun!!

just to me racing wouldnt be racing if all you heard was the sound of vacuming cleaners going by :L

[ISLAMATRON]

you have not felt the acceleration an electric motor can create... I raced an electric go kart next to an ICE one and the acceleration was astounding... left him at the line holding his d*ck

[SZ]

no for the reasons you posted not enough energy per stored volume insane tank needed to hold even a decent amount. Refueling would be almost impossible during a race.

True... but there's potential uses for it in very small amounts...

You're all missing an opportunity...

[James_graham]

no for the reasons you posted not enough energy per stored volume insane tank needed to hold even a decent amount. Refueling would be almost impossible during a race.

True... but there's potential uses for it in very small amounts...

You're all missing an opportunity...

I agree I think the possibility ad development that comes with using Hydrogen in F1 would yeilf brilliant results.

I do not think re fueling would be impossible, just present new challanges to over comes, and as refuellin is bannd then may not need to.

it would cost lots of money to do though.

[SZ]

That's not what that link suggests...

[010010011010]

True... but there's potential uses for it in very small amounts...

Whoops i didn't realise it was a link

Thats very interesting alright, for the bit i understood.

It increased thermal efficiency, does that increase the torque of the engine?

[SZ]

Whoops i didn't realise it was a link

Thats very interesting alright, for the bit i understood.

It increased thermal efficiency, does that increase the torque of the engine?

It increases IMEP (so cylinder pressure, that's torque and power everywhere) cuts NOx and reduces variance between combustion events (things run smoother) by adding a very small portion of hydrogen via a piggyback injector to the combustion mix. Pretty neat actually. The amount would appear to be so small it could be catalysed out of tank fuel, possibly even vapours, or certainly carried in a very small tank on-board.

[ISLAMATRON]

refueling actually could be very easy, just swap out tanks like they would a driver's drink bottle in a long distance endurance race, quick connections and such.

I'm sure they've been working on low weight CF tanks to hold hydrogen, so they shouldn't too difficult to move around.

It would just be different than pumping fuel the old fashioned way.