Strange going-ons at Red Bull

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Is Webber being sabotaged by RB management?

Poll ended at 07 Jun 2010, 15:03

Yes
23
33%
Maybe
20
29%
Unlikely
17
24%
no way
10
14%
 
Total votes: 70

nipo
nipo
0
Joined: 30 Jul 2009, 04:45
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Re: Strange going-ons at Red Bull

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Let's just hope Horner does a better job... It's going to be a big shame if they lost the championships to political fights within the team. Remember McLaren 2007?

And seriously I have always thought Webber/Vettel is a MUCH better pairing than Hamilton/Alonso... Now it looks like McLaren is managing better with its two champs. Maybe they've learnt their lessons (or maybe it's because the two champs didn't include Alonso, LOL).

Anyway I'd really love to see Reb Bull win for a change.

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Strange going-ons at Red Bull

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myurr wrote:White Blue, you still believe this is all just a PR spin story invented by Webber?
No, I have never said that. If you would read my posts with the intention of understanding them instead of a total pre occupation against me I would not have to explain it again.

Horner by his own admission screwed up twice in the wing story, first by not laying down a rule how a single component (performance relevant or not) would be handles in the team. It should have been item two or three on their agenda when they talked after Turkey. According to all sources including the drivers they never thought about making that rule before they lost one of the new spec wings in P3 at Silverstone. According to uncontroversial reports that decision was made twenty minutes before qualifying by Horner. It was setting a precedent because such a decision had not been required before. So it was indeed invented on the Silverstone Saturday. At least I take this as fact because I have not heared any of the participants contradict that statement by Horner.

Secondly Horner failed to communicate his decision in person to Webber but let Pilbeam break the news to him. This second mistake is plain dumb but again this story isn't challenged by anybody in the team or by any of the reporters who wrote about it. I believe that it has actually happened that way until I see contrary evidence by someone in the team.

Under the assumption that these are the facts I would accept Webber's immediate reaction after qualifying. His comment to the press "The team is happy" implying that he was unhappy would appear justified. Under normal conditions one would assume that Webber and Horner would have had a chat within three hours of qualifying and that the storm in the tea cup would have been over. That did not happen. And here we have himself confirming the above sequence of events.
Mark Webber, markwebber.com wrote:My disappointment on Saturday after qualifying spilled over into Sunday but it was simply due to the fact that I, along with every other driver on the grid, wanted the best possible chance of success.
Sebastian received the newer front wing for reasons which were not clearly explained to me until Saturday late afternoon. Obviously I can see why a team may at certain points have to favour a driver with more points in the championship, if there are only enough resources to fully support one of us.

We’ve already debriefed the race weekend at the factory and have cleared the air. It’s now understood that, should we face this unlikely dilemma again, preference will go to the championship points leader. Of course things get said in the heat of the moment which, with hindsight goggles on, probably shouldn’t have been said.
I'm now talking of the things "which, with hindsight goggles on, probably shouldn’t have been said." Here the element of spin mastering and psyop come into it. By 6 pm latest, Webber by his own admission had all the explanations. One would expect him to signal that to the press and limit the damage that the wing incident had done to the team and the reputation of his team mate. He did not do this. Webber kept fanning the media frency for the next 22 hours including his post race team radio and press comments.

The question has to be asked why he continued his crusade. I don't buy the "simple Aussie gets over excited" cover that he made up. His media communications after his talk with Horner on Saturday afternoon is what I would call spin mastering and psychological operation against the team and his team mate. I call it revenge on Horner and playing with Vettel's mind.

In Mateschitz's shoes I would not tolerate that one of my drivers highjacks the control over the team media communication. This warrants at least a stern warning that any future transgression or insubordination (such as publicly indicating he would not share a podium with Horner) will get him fired. In actual fact I would have terminated the contract after this season.

I hope I have made myself clear now.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

db__
db__
0
Joined: 09 Oct 2006, 12:30

Re: Strange going-ons at Red Bull

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BreezyRacer wrote:
db__ wrote:
myurr wrote: White Blue, you still believe this is all just a PR spin story invented by Webber?
For goodness sakes don't encourage him [-X

The think I fail to understand was Christian Horner's insistence that
"the performance difference between the two [wings] is absolutely minimal"
If there was really such an imperceptible difference between the two wings then why cause such controversy with a change which would cause more psychological than actual effect. Either CH is fundamentally incompetent at management or there was a greater performance difference and he is actually, instead, a liar.

Either way it seems that the team (not the drivers, both of whom I think are innocent in this) is doing everything in it's power to make winning either championship as difficult as possible.
Well imagine yourself going thru 3 practice sessions with that wing .. setting up the balance, the weight distribution, roll stiffness, wing settings, etc and getting ready to qualify. Then someone doesn't even asks, he just comes along and takes your wing and leaves you with a wing you were not planning on using. Not only that but he gives that wing to your team mate. That is what happened.
Sorry - I didn't make myself clear - I understand why MW is P****d off. What I don't understand is why, if there was such a small performance difference given RB's speed advantage, CH et al would be stupid enough to cause such a disproportionate amount of grief.

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Strange going-ons at Red Bull

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db__ wrote:Sorry - I didn't make myself clear - I understand why MW is P****d off. What I don't understand is why, if there was such a small performance difference given RB's speed advantage, CH et al would be stupid enough to cause such a disproportionate amount of grief.
One could consider the reasons that were officially given by the team. Adrian Newey is doing constant development on aerodynamic components and wanted the feed back from a variety of race situations to verify that aggressive turn in was indeed improved by this wing. He wasn't aware that his intentions would be miscommunicated to Webber. A more balanced person or a person with more team spirit would probably have not felt as much grief as Webber. Communication is always a two way affair and the driver can help bad communication by addressing issues timely and internally.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

mcdenife
mcdenife
1
Joined: 05 Nov 2004, 13:21
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Re: Strange going-ons at Red Bull

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WhiteBlue wrote:By 6 pm latest, Webber by his own admission had all the explanations. One would expect him to signal that to the press and limit the damage that the wing incident had done to the team and the reputation of his team mate. He did not do this. Webber kept fanning the media frency for the next 22 hours including his post race team radio and press comments.
Understanding the teams reason is not the same as accepting or agreeing with it and neither is it excusing or condoning the teams behaviour. It is disingenuous to suggest his actions are damaging to the team or the reputation(?) of his team mate when said team mate is the beneficiary of team disadvantaging him (besides the only reputation Seb "the prat" Vettel has is that he needs his team handicapping his team mate for him to succeed). Think about it, they give Marks wing to "the prat" then explain to him "by 6 pm latest", no less, that this was due to a policy which did not previously exist and infact was made up just then to justify their actions. You are conveniently forgetting that both Mark and Seb are still very much in the championship hunt, so why disadvantage one for the other. This is worse than Ferrari telling Rubens to move aside for Schu-"the chin"-Macher in Austria very early in that season. Limit damage you say? Well boo-effing-hoo, they brought it on themselves. What about the damage to his chances for the WDC?
WhiteBlue wrote:Adrian Newey is doing constant development on aerodynamic components and wanted the feed back from a variety of race situations to verify that aggressive turn in was indeed improved by this wing. He wasn't aware that his intentions would be miscommunicated to Webber. A more balanced person or a person with more team spirit would probably have not felt as much grief as Webber.
If thats the explanation, thats ok then, innit? Implying Mark is incapable of providing said feedback is even less reason to feel so aggrieved. So Mark must therefore be aggrieved because he is less balanced. Good summation, well done that man!
Last edited by mcdenife on 15 Jul 2010, 12:20, edited 3 times in total.
Long experience has taught me this about the status of mankind with regards to matters requiring thought. The less people know and understand about them, the more positively they attempt to argue concerning them; while on the other hand, to know and understand a multitude of things renders men cautious in passing judgement upon anything new. - Galileo..

The noblest of dogs is the hot dog. It feeds the hand that bites it.

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Strange going-ons at Red Bull

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One more thing for the Webber fans. Please go to http://www.gpupdate.net/en/videos/374/s ... an-horner/? and listen to the story. You will actually find that the wing was not taken off Webber's car to give it to his team mate as many people here have inferred from insufficient information. The wing was actually taken away after P3 to be nondestructively tested following the failure of the other wing on Seb's car. It should have been pretty easy for Pilbeam/Webber to confirm with factory sources that indeed this test was carried out. I don't see that this wing had to re allocated after the test to Webber. Enough has been said about this part of the story.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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Paul
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Joined: 25 Feb 2009, 19:33

Re: Strange going-ons at Red Bull

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What's the difference? That was still the wing from Webber's car and should have been put back after the tests. If you come to a service station and parts are taken off your car you still consider them parts of your car and expect them to be put back, don't you?

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Strange going-ons at Red Bull

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mcdenife wrote: You are conveniently forgetting that both Mark and Seb are still very much in the championship hunt, so why disadvantage one for the other.
Adrian Newey is doing constant development on aerodynamic components and wanted the feed back from a variety of race situations to verify that aggressive turn in was indeed improved by this wing. He wasn't aware that his intentions would be miscommunicated to Webber. A more balanced person or a person with more team spirit would probably have not felt as much grief as Webber.
If thats the explanation, thats ok then, innit? Implying Mark is incapable of providing said feedback is even less reason to feel so aggrieved. So Mark must therefore be aggrieved because he is less balanced. Good summation, well done that man!
You have a one sided view IMO. There was only one component after the wing came back from testing and the criterion given by Horner makes sense. Unfortunately he made a mistake in communicating the decision properly.

I haven't implied that Mark is incapable to give the feed back. The decision was to decide the driver to give feed back based on championship points and P3 performance. The less balanced statement relates to Mark Webber's actions on Saturday evening and Sunday that are clearly a bit strange for a driver who wants to lead a team. You usually build consense and give positive feed back to the team and you do not embark on public criticism if you want to lead a team.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

autogyro
autogyro
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Joined: 04 Oct 2009, 15:03

Re: Strange going-ons at Red Bull

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I think it is the Briatorre effect.
Mark is a nice guy. I thought he would have escaped the effects by now.

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Strange going-ons at Red Bull

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Paul wrote:What's the difference? That was still the wing from Webber's car and should have been put back after the tests. If you come to a service station and parts are taken off your car you still consider them parts of your car and expect them to be put back, don't you?
Nope. They shared one wing for FP1 and FP2 when only one wing was available on Friday. Then they used one wing each when two wings were available for FP3 on Saturday. For qualifying the one wing was coming back which was tested ok and a new allocation had to be made. This has nothing to do with a private car. The cars belong to the team and are allocated by team decision and procedure. So are new components after testing.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

Mysticf1
Mysticf1
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Re: Strange going-ons at Red Bull

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Why couldnt Vettel see the possible ramifications and insist the wing was used on Webber's car? That would have been a perfect way for him to take the initiative and think about the team effort...A very similar thing happened in the lotus team recently regarding a newer chassis.

Arguing that the part was tested and that rendered it no longer from Webbers car is ridiculous.

After Turkey the press and fans are extremely weary of Redbull favoritism...and obviously so is Webber...i think that explains the whole reaction he gave and rightfully so. Redbull can't make up the rules as they go and expect harmony.

marcush.
marcush.
159
Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: Strange going-ons at Red Bull

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lets conclude ,RedBull is outstanding in discovering potholes where nobody else would ever happen to find one... and is making this championship harder fought than necessary..
At this time they have trown away already a lot of points due to silly mismanagement ,weaknesses in Quality and drivers obviously in search for a more levelheaded approach in what they do.
To me the car is even better in relation to the rest of the field than we have seen Brawn
in the first half of 2009.....

PNSD
PNSD
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Re: Strange going-ons at Red Bull

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MysticF1 - Good shout out about Lotus. Funny thing was, that was a far more fundemental part of the car, it was the chassis! And neither driver wanted it, saying give it to Trulli, give it to Heikki. In the end the right decision was made. Trulli was underperforming so got a new chassis aka a confidence booster.

mcdenife
mcdenife
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Re: Strange going-ons at Red Bull

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WhiteBlue wrote:The wing was actually taken away after P3 to be nondestructively tested following the failure of the other wing on Seb's car. It should have been pretty easy for Pilbeam/Webber to confirm with factory sources that indeed this test was carried out. I don't see that this wing had to re allocated after the test to Webber.
So let me get this straight, you have a new component on each car. It breaks on A's car and a fault is found presumably. So it is taken off B's car to check it doesnt have similar fault. The part is found to not have the same fault but rather than put back on the B's car you give to A because of the new policy, just made up by way, that he is ahead in the championship and some convoluted allocations argument. And you still find B's anger and reaction strange?
Long experience has taught me this about the status of mankind with regards to matters requiring thought. The less people know and understand about them, the more positively they attempt to argue concerning them; while on the other hand, to know and understand a multitude of things renders men cautious in passing judgement upon anything new. - Galileo..

The noblest of dogs is the hot dog. It feeds the hand that bites it.

BreezyRacer
BreezyRacer
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Re: Strange going-ons at Red Bull

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This latest twist adds yet another layer of mud to the story. So Mark was cool with it Saturday eve, before the race? Ah, no .. couldn't be. The tension from this led all the way thru to the checkered flag wherein Horner said "You can smile now Mark" and thru press briefings thereafter.

As in Turkey, the truth won't come out, but in order to find the truth, as in Turkey, go to the moment, when it happened. Not two days later when a yarn (or two) is spun. That's as close to the truth as we will get.