2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[Gillian]

Would Max not have won Turkey if that was the case ? When the RB was nowhere near the Merc in wet conditions.

It is also questionable. Mercedes pace was a bit better but with high df and they have better tyre life compared to RB. ( in the same time race was between dry and inter conditions, not completely wet )
Max could keep same speed with Bottas but he should race risk free and Max says, with second set of tyre, they decided to finish at p2. This means they could push to Bottas if it were beneficial. But it was risky and because of bottas speed it was not guarantee to overtake so it was wise decision. Ham can not overtake Perez and stuck 10 laps behind Yuki.
As a conclusion Mercedes were faster at Turkey but thinking they were far ahead is not true.

Nice analysis, I agree mostly.

I think these relative terms are a cause of much debate. What do you mean with not far ahead?

I think they where far ahead, regardless weather conditions. With far I myself mean atleast 0.4sec in the race.

[NathanOlder]

Would Max not have won Turkey if that was the case ? When the RB was nowhere near the Merc in wet conditions.

It is also questionable. Mercedes pace was a bit better but with high df and they have better tyre life compared to RB. ( in the same time race was between dry and inter conditions, not completely wet )
Max could keep same speed with Bottas but he should race risk free and Max says, with second set of tyre, they decided to finish at p2. This means they could push to Bottas if it were beneficial. But it was risky and because of bottas speed it was not guarantee to overtake so it was wise decision. Ham can not overtake Perez and stuck 10 laps behind Yuki.
As a conclusion Mercedes were faster at Turkey but thinking they were far ahead is not true.

So I guess Max has changed his approach now he's in a championship battle. Interesting as there were many (not saying you were one) here claiming Max would never change and just continue to drive the way he does (full attack at all times).

[Wouter]

So I guess Max has changed his approach now he's in a championship battle. Interesting as there were many (not saying you were one) here claiming Max would never change and just continue to drive the way he does (full attack at all times).

Max himself said he would never change his driving style and just continue to drive the way he does, but .....
he also said that when you're driving for a WC sometimes you have to be satisfied with a little less points, because you need every point sorely at the end of the season.

[etusch]

So I guess Max has changed his approach now he's in a championship battle. Interesting as there were many (not saying you were one) here claiming Max would never change and just continue to drive the way he does (full attack at all times).

Even in 2019-2020 max just drived to finish when he realise he has nothing to do do get better result. I don't know how you can't see what I mean. This is not changing driving style but doing what needed.
But we can not deny that when norris or russel pushed, their only objective is only that lap or race but when max do something it is not only for one race or one lap but for whole season.

[etusch]

I think these relative terms are a cause of much debate. What do you mean with not far ahead?

I think they where far ahead, regardless weather conditions. With far I myself mean atleast 0.4sec in the race.

Some "this is mercedes and hamilton" guys says mercedes is faster because of silverstone update and will win the trophy. I mean this is not true and in reality merc is not faster then Redbull Honda as a car and even as PU. That's why merc needed pushing so hard their PU.
Merc used to put lots of laps at tests and fp sessions just from the beginning of sessions without any concern and now they have to count their laps.

[TimW]

So I guess Max has changed his approach now he's in a championship battle. Interesting as there were many (not saying you were one) here claiming Max would never change and just continue to drive the way he does (full attack at all times).

Max himself said he would never change his driving style and just continue to drive the way he does, but .....
he also said that when you're driving for a WC sometimes you have to be satisfied with a little less points, because you need every point sorely at the end of the season.

Turkey was not really a wet race, it was a tire management race. Max pace was purely set by tire management, as he said in post race interviews ("it was an annoying race, you could never push, you were just managing the tires").
So the fact that he did not attack Bottas had nothing to do with the risk of the battle, it would just have eaten up his tires and put P2 at risk. Whenever Max closed the gap a bit, Bottas could always easily respond.
This is probably also why most drivers (except Tsunoda and Perez) gave Hamilton an easy pass. Fighting him would have eaten up their tires, compromising there own finishing position.

[Juzh]

Would Max not have won Turkey if that was the case ? When the RB was nowhere near the Merc in wet conditions.

It is also questionable. Mercedes pace was a bit better but with high df and they have better tyre life compared to RB. ( in the same time race was between dry and inter conditions, not completely wet )
Max could keep same speed with Bottas but he should race risk free and Max says, with second set of tyre, they decided to finish at p2. This means they could push to Bottas if it were beneficial. But it was risky and because of bottas speed it was not guarantee to overtake so it was wise decision. Ham can not overtake Perez and stuck 10 laps behind Yuki.
As a conclusion Mercedes were faster at Turkey but thinking they were far ahead is not true.

Twist it however you want, at the end of the day Bottas beat Verstappen with ease in a wet (!!) race, and they were easily out qualified in the dry. This tells me everything I need to know about car performance. Tyre problems were the same for everyone and if one team was hurt less than another it doesn't change the fact their car was still better on that day.

Another point, the only reason Red bull has to run less downforce and spoon wings is because honda PU inherently has less power than mercedes PU and as we can see having less power has a snowballing effect in terms of tyre wear and being unable to overtake, while being easily overtaken yourself. Like seriously, advantage Mercedes had in turkey on power front was fricken huge even with hamilton running huge AOE on rear wing.

[Curbstone]

Would Max not have won Turkey if that was the case ? When the RB was nowhere near the Merc in wet conditions.

It is also questionable. Mercedes pace was a bit better but with high df and they have better tyre life compared to RB. ( in the same time race was between dry and inter conditions, not completely wet )
Max could keep same speed with Bottas but he should race risk free and Max says, with second set of tyre, they decided to finish at p2. This means they could push to Bottas if it were beneficial. But it was risky and because of bottas speed it was not guarantee to overtake so it was wise decision. Ham can not overtake Perez and stuck 10 laps behind Yuki.
As a conclusion Mercedes were faster at Turkey but thinking they were far ahead is not true.

RBR didn't decide to finish at P2, they basically had no other choice. Bottas always had a few tenths left and the only way they could beat Bottas was in case Bottas made a big mistake. All RBR did was decide to keep their own race and tire wear clean.

[Zynerji]

Merc and RBR have different aero philosophies, hence why copying one concept from an opposing car rarely works.

You must integrate that concept into your overall aero philosophy. Making changes at the front of a car is more work than further back, because what you do upfront effects everything behind!

So, it's smart for Merc. But dumb for RBR?

How do you know that implementing the bendy wing wouldn't solve some of RBR's issues?

How do you know implementing the bendy wing would solve RBR's issues?
We simply don't. But we do know RBR has seen and investigated the bendy front wing of Mercedes, they know it's something the FIA doesn't have a problem with so they are aware of the concept and that they are allowed to implement is. They also have a team of aero specialist, and have made a lot of changes to the front wing so we know RBR does have a strong focus in the front wing.
Therefore it's more logical to assume that the concept has been investigated and found inefficient in RBR total concept, than to assume they never considered it and are therefore leaving a lot of performance on the tabel. That last assumption is a quite an insult to the RBR aero department.

What assumptions? I was seeking clarity, not making a proclamation (as others here do).

I'm sure RBR had investigated it. For all we know, it will show up in Austin...

[Tizz]

So I guess Max has changed his approach now he's in a championship battle. Interesting as there were many (not saying you were one) here claiming Max would never change and just continue to drive the way he does (full attack at all times).

Max himself said he would never change his driving style and just continue to drive the way he does, but .....
he also said that when you're driving for a WC sometimes you have to be satisfied with a little less points, because you need every point sorely at the end of the season.

Turkey was not really a wet race, it was a tire management race. Max pace was purely set by tire management, as he said in post race interviews ("it was an annoying race, you could never push, you were just managing the tires").
So the fact that he did not attack Bottas had nothing to do with the risk of the battle, it would just have eaten up his tires and put P2 at risk. Whenever Max closed the gap a bit, Bottas could always easily respond.
This is probably also why most drivers (except Tsunoda and Perez) gave Hamilton an easy pass. Fighting him would have eaten up their tires, compromising there own finishing position.

Max wasn't anywhere near Bottas' pace. Bottas managed to take fastest lap on the very end on old tires with almost 2 sec difference. If Max would have had the pace and the tires, he would have given it a try to take the fastest lap. Bottas was cruising and managing the gap to Max, not his tires.

[Manoah2u]

All season long the RBR cars have greatly benefitted from wet conditions compared to the rest of the competition, especially because obviously it is something that levels the field more, but Mercedes has been notoriously strong on handling it's tires.

When a race has been had under dry conditions, and Mercedes qualified in front, and there have been no neutralizations through red flags, SC, etc, RB's chances to come close to P1 has been far more difficult than under wet conditions.

One of the clearest examples here was the changing wet conditions in Russia at the end of the GP, where Max greatly benefitted from, and as such, really hurt the amount of points Hamilton could take on Verstappen, whom was serving engine penalties and started all the way from the back.

It's all part of the game and thats just how it is, i dont even mind, but its absolutely clear that Verstappen had a giant break of luck when serving his penalties compared to Hamilton, purely down to circumstances out of everybody's control (not to mention the Belgian facade). Also, thanks to the wet, Verstappen didn't even set Q times in Russia, saving his tires and engine and parts greatly. Personally i understand the move and the rules allow it but i find it really unsportive - again, the rules should prevent something delibaretely like this.

Had Russia been dry, then there is no single way Verstappen would have come close to where he finished.
And would Turkey have been dry, then there would have been more pitstops needed, or atleast the tactics would have played vastly different.

It's a trend that keeps returning, hence especially with COTA supposedly fitting Mercedes a bit more, as long as its dry, Hamilton can score good points.
If it turns out wet however, this will swing more towards RB/Max.

[dans79]

It's a trend that keeps returning, hence especially with COTA supposedly fitting Mercedes a bit more, as long as its dry, Hamilton can score good points.
If it turns out wet however, this will swing more towards RB/Max.

Austin is a crap shoot this time of year, it can be hot and bone dry for over a week, or it can be cold and wet for just as long.

[Manoah2u]

It's a trend that keeps returning, hence especially with COTA supposedly fitting Mercedes a bit more, as long as its dry, Hamilton can score good points.
If it turns out wet however, this will swing more towards RB/Max.

Austin is a crap shoot this time of year, it can be hot and bone dry for over a week, or it can be cold and wet for just as long.

I don't remember, has it ever rained during a COTA F1 GP?

[etusch]

Max himself said he would never change his driving style and just continue to drive the way he does, but .....
he also said that when you're driving for a WC sometimes you have to be satisfied with a little less points, because you need every point sorely at the end of the season.

Turkey was not really a wet race, it was a tire management race. Max pace was purely set by tire management, as he said in post race interviews ("it was an annoying race, you could never push, you were just managing the tires").
So the fact that he did not attack Bottas had nothing to do with the risk of the battle, it would just have eaten up his tires and put P2 at risk. Whenever Max closed the gap a bit, Bottas could always easily respond.
This is probably also why most drivers (except Tsunoda and Perez) gave Hamilton an easy pass. Fighting him would have eaten up their tires, compromising there own finishing position.

Max wasn't anywhere near Bottas' pace. Bottas managed to take fastest lap on the very end on old tires with almost 2 sec difference. If Max would have had the pace and the tires, he would have given it a try to take the fastest lap. Bottas was cruising and managing the gap to Max, not his tires.

How old? Verstappen pitted earlier. Redbull played safe.

[dans79]

It's a trend that keeps returning, hence especially with COTA supposedly fitting Mercedes a bit more, as long as its dry, Hamilton can score good points.
If it turns out wet however, this will swing more towards RB/Max.

Austin is a crap shoot this time of year, it can be hot and bone dry for over a week, or it can be cold and wet for just as long.

I don't remember, has it ever rained during a COTA F1 GP?

2015 was a wet start and a dry finish.