Mercedes GP W02

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter do not belong here.
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mep
29
Joined: 11 Oct 2003, 15:48
Location: Germany

Re: Mercedes GP W02

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How do you want to test during a race?
Do you want them to stop every third lap and change something on the car?
That would piss your sponsors off and you have to do what they tell you.
Anyways what do you even want to test what you can't test during the testing sessions, the wind tunnel or in CFD?

I am pretty sure they do collect data during the race and use them to improve the car. None of those teams are as stupid as you might think or as they sometimes look like.

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MIKEY_!
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Joined: 10 Jul 2011, 03:07

Re: Mercedes GP W02

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gilgen wrote:I fail to see how the team designers can have less knowledge on how to design a car, than some of the posters here. I am sure that the CFD projections showed that an SWB was every bit as effect as a LWB. OK, the design got something wrong, but how can anyone say that it was one specific issue. SWB cars have won races in the past.
What are their problems, grip in high speed corners, grip in low speed corners, tire wear and degradation. The most obvious reason is the high fuel tank as has been said here numerous occasions. No one claims it is the magic bullet but it's likely a serious issue. Also they were slow to adopt Red Bull's EBD style and it's my opinion that happened because they had other things (like cooling) to deal with and because hot blowing (as is required for the EBD) uses more fuel. I think they had to use the less effective system because it is more stable under varying exhaust flows. That meant they had less of a problem with carrying high fuel loads.

With no refueling SWB cars are more vulnerable to having high CoG. Pre-2009 I suspect fast SWB cars had to pit more often than rivals. CFD likely did show good results for SWB (turns out they are very quick in a straight line) but the issues stated above plus many, many more small ones all added up to give them a difficult season.

marcush.
marcush.
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Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: Mercedes GP W02

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the high cof G would only hurt with full tank as the high tank filled with air will not have a relevant influence on the cof G...

But a high and wide fuel tank will of course have an influence on car crossection as the tank fights for space with the radiators and radiator ducting and of course the wider tank will add substance to the tub behind the driver which may leed to more blockage and that could hamper rearwing and difusser performance.

ForMuLaOne
ForMuLaOne
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Joined: 19 Feb 2011, 02:01

Re: Mercedes GP W02

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It is a bit off topic, but to create the effect of a shorter, or smaller bodywork you could do something else...

Are perforated surfaces allowed? Why dont they suck off the boundary layer with a doubled bodywork (one solid layer, one perforated above) connected to the diffusor... would love to see this.

Metalrulz
Metalrulz
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Joined: 10 Oct 2011, 22:01

Re: Mercedes GP W02

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The w02 was always known for having the highest top speeds because of their DRS-MERC engine but at the japanese gp it was the ferraris that were the fastest at the speed traps... is it because other teams have copied the w02's drs system or the w02 was forced to run additional wing angle thus creating more drag/downforce ?

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MIKEY_!
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Joined: 10 Jul 2011, 03:07

Re: Mercedes GP W02

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the w02 was forced to run additional wing angle thus creating more drag/downforce ?
That would be my bet. Many teams have been running the short chord DRS since the start of the year. Mclaren was the only top team to keep the long chord version. Also the Mercedes engine may be powerful but the Ferrari one is close and the rest not that far behind. But that's just peak power, in real life you have stuff like torque curves and power delivery coming in as well (Renault has been fastest in speed traps several times this year from memory). The car+driver's ability to exit the corner before the straight at the highest speed also plays a big part.

Metalrulz
Metalrulz
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Joined: 10 Oct 2011, 22:01

Re: Mercedes GP W02

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I guess a few teams may come up with a longer gearbox including mercedes & mclaren to make the best use of the powerful mercedes engine as ross said that the team had already started building the new gearboxes.
Many teams have been sitting on the Rev limiter with the DRS wing open and being unable to pass the car ahead.. Example hamilton trying to pass Schumi on the straights at monza with his
Drs wing wide open and Schumi using only KERS and hamilton was still unable to pass Schumi & hamilton was sitting on the rev limiter for a long period on the straights.

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Cocles
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Joined: 02 Sep 2011, 13:27

Re: Mercedes GP W02

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Metalrulz wrote:Example hamilton trying to pass Schumi on the straights at monza with his Drs wing wide open and Schumi using only KERS and hamilton was still unable to pass Schumi & hamilton was sitting on the rev limiter for a long period on the straights.
Heh, it wasn't nearly as publicized because you basically had to be in Europe where you could watch nothing but Schumi and Massa on board footage for the first 15 laps or so... but at Spa, Massa was unable to pass Schumi using both DRS and KERS, while Schumi didn't even touch his KERS button.

volarchico
volarchico
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Joined: 26 Feb 2010, 07:27

Re: Mercedes GP W02

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Metalrulz wrote:I guess a few teams may come up with a longer gearbox including mercedes & mclaren to make the best use of the powerful mercedes engine...
Aren't the teams already allowed to choose different gear ratios for every race? The difference being some choose to maximize DRS open top-speed, while others choose to maximize DRS closed acceleration.

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raymondu999
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 07:31

Re: Mercedes GP W02

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I believe they're allowed to nominate 30 ratios at the start of the year. They then choose 7 per race
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Intego
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Joined: 01 Apr 2010, 16:35

Re: Mercedes GP W02

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Yes they are, but they have to choose 30 gear ratio options before the season starts and then choose one of them for each race.
formula1.com wrote:Q: Article 9.6.2 of the Technical Regulations says all competitors have only 30 gear ratio pairs available for the season, and these must be declared before the first event of the year. How are they selected?
A: This rule means that the teams have 30 ratio options available, not that only 30 ratios can be used. Within this range, ratios can be changed between races to adapt to circuit characteristics. The 30 ratio options are chosen based on pre-season testing with both drivers, plus lap simulation. Each driver has the same 30 ratios available.
Read more ...

EDIT: Sorry Raymond, this is an answer to volarchico. Please don't get me wrong by thinking of me as being nit-picky (which I am sometimes). :-#
Last edited by Intego on 12 Oct 2011, 18:06, edited 1 time in total.
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raymondu999
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 07:31

Re: Mercedes GP W02

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I'm not sure I follow you Intego. Choose 1 gear ratio for each race? They have 7 gears.
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Intego
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Joined: 01 Apr 2010, 16:35

Re: Mercedes GP W02

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Ratio option. The article further says:
Q: How are ratios selected for a specific circuit?
A: The first part of the process is to select top gear, which is done through simulation of various wing levels, plus the lap time compromise between DRS and non-DRS running for various top gears: optimising for non-DRS running could leave the driver on the limiter for too long when DRS is active, while the reverse scenario could cost too much lap time without DRS because the gearing is too 'long'. At high-downforce circuits, using DRS has increased top speeds by 15 km/h, while speeds are very similar at medium-downforce circuits like Montreal; its operation can also increase engine speeds by nearly 1,000 rpm.

The remaining ratios are picked after running the circuit on the simulator. The ratios must provide sufficient torque to exit a corner without the engine bogging down but, if the ratio is too short, it becomes difficult to control wheel spin on exit, or could make the car nervous on corner entry. Upon arrival at the circuit, planned ratios may be adapted to suit grip levels or wind direction. Within the range of 30 ratios, they can be freely changed between first and second practice. After P2, the team has just two hours to select final ratios for the remainder of the event.
EDIT: I have to state more precisely: Of course they choose 7 ratios from 30 ratio options for 1 gear ratio set per race. :wink:
Last edited by Intego on 12 Oct 2011, 18:33, edited 1 time in total.
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Byron R
Byron R
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Joined: 08 May 2011, 21:43

Re: Mercedes GP W02

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Metalrulz wrote:The w02 was always known for having the highest top speeds because of their DRS-MERC engine but at the japanese gp it was the ferraris that were the fastest at the speed traps... is it because other teams have copied the w02's drs system or the w02 was forced to run additional wing angle thus creating more drag/downforce ?
The speed trap was in the middle of 130r . Not showing ultimate mph , but mph through the corner. The reason why Mercedes wasn't near the top, I believe redbull through qualy and practice showed the best speeds, more of a sign of best handling , not power.

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Ferraripilot
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Joined: 28 Jan 2011, 16:36
Location: Atlanta

Re: Mercedes GP W02

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Byron R wrote:
Metalrulz wrote:The w02 was always known for having the highest top speeds because of their DRS-MERC engine but at the japanese gp it was the ferraris that were the fastest at the speed traps... is it because other teams have copied the w02's drs system or the w02 was forced to run additional wing angle thus creating more drag/downforce ?
The speed trap was in the middle of 130r . Not showing ultimate mph , but mph through the corner. The reason why Mercedes wasn't near the top, I believe redbull through qualy and practice showed the best speeds, more of a sign of best handling , not power.


+1 right. W02 cannot carry the speed RB7 can carry through that corner. It's very much an exercise in rear end downforce and driver commitment!