Ferrari brake duct\wheel fairings (silverstone)

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Carbon
Carbon
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Joined: 19 Jan 2004, 19:02
Location: Vancouver, BC

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Cheers, thanks FLC. Must have been my groggy eyes. :oops:

DaveKillens
DaveKillens
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Joined: 20 Jan 2005, 04:02

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RH1300S wrote:I don't want to start a big flame war here; but faired wheels are specifically banned. This system effectively creates a faired wheel within the regulations. How come the FIA didn't pipe in and say - this goes against the spirit of the regulations - we won't allow it. It's all very clever, but sooner or later I expect to see several other cars with these systems - they may as well free up the faired wheel regs OR dissallow this particular interpretation of the rules.
After Fisi's right rear wheel fairing fell off on the front straight, there are serious safety issues that need to be addressed by the FIA. Despite Ferrari's clever interpretation of the rules, we just don't need them.

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Rob W
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DaveKillens wrote:After Fisi's right rear wheel fairing fell off on the front straight, there are serious safety issues that need to be addressed by the FIA. Despite Ferrari's clever interpretation of the rules, we just don't need them.
I agree. When Massa and then Alonso swerved to miss it - how easily could that have been a high-speed crash if the track was a bit wetter?

Hamilton even hit it on the next lap right?

Rob W

Saribro
Saribro
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He missed it by half a hair, perhaps a quarter hair.

manchild
manchild
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Will FIA finally act?! Now they have winglet mounted on it!

http://www.f1technical.net/development/101

C'mon! Enough is enough. They are making idiots of all F1 designers who never tried something like this because they respected regulations. Basic FIA regulations say that aerodynamic elements/bodywork can't be wider than 1400mm and Ferrari is placing winglets on the outer side of wheels! That's AT LEAST 300mm off limit! How come FIA stewards don't notice that?!

That front fairing is not just wider than the rim but now it has winglet on it which means that winglet is movable and changes aerodynamic performance depending on steering angle and suspension travel!

Wake up Charlie!

BTW, check the inside of front fairing (old version)

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DaveKillens wrote:After Fisi's right rear wheel fairing fell off on the front straight, there are serious safety issues that need to be addressed by the FIA. Despite Ferrari's clever interpretation of the rules, we just don't need them.
That happened for first time in 2006 during Canadian GP when fairing fell off from one Toyota. As usual - since no one was hurt or killed FIA did nothing about it. I'm not being biased - ban all of them, Renault's too.
Last edited by manchild on 06 Aug 2007, 11:06, edited 1 time in total.

Ciwai
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Next logical development.

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Where's nigel stepney (to point out these things) when you need him?

modbaraban
modbaraban
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Location: Kyiv, Ukraine

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manchild wrote:
DaveKillens wrote:After Fisi's right rear wheel fairing fell off on the front straight, there are serious safety issues that need to be addressed by the FIA. Despite Ferrari's clever interpretation of the rules, we just don't need them.
"We just don't need them" isn't a decent argument, is it?
Obviously if Ferrari declare these as a part of the brake cooling system, I suggest you check the regulations to see the limitations for the brake intakes and stuff. It wasn't a secret that F2007 had fins outside the 1400mm :wink: But even Tomba called that Cooling tweaks with Ferrari. That might be illegal too. BTW, MP4-22 have this as well (maybe others too). Maybe you should make a deeper investigation and send the results to FIA? :)
Ciwai wrote:Next logical development.

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v427/ ... t=dvlp.jpg

Where's nigel stepney (to point out these things) when you need him?
:lol:

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Rob W
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manchild wrote:Will FIA finally act?! Now they have winglet mounted on it!
I was thinking the same thing with regards to maximum allowable bodywork.

Either it's part of the body or part of the wheel - it can't be both/neither depending on which aspect of it's legality you're defending.

Rob W

manchild
manchild
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Ciwai wrote:Next logical development.

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Where's nigel stepney (to point out these things) when you need him?
Exactly!

RH1300S
RH1300S
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Joined: 06 Jun 2005, 15:29

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While I wouldn't agree with Manchild's exact wording...........he's right.

I thought I "spotted" fins during the Hungarian GP, I wasn't alone - This, surely is taking the huge piss.

Why don't people look back at the regs and ask the question - "why were faired wheels banned/not allowed in the first place" - then ask the question "are these (& others) just the same thing by a different name?"

Obviously without the benefit of a wind tunnel, we don't really know. But those winglets surely have less to do with brake cooling than aiming the air-flow around the wheel to a beneficial place?

Also, good point about the wheel to wheel contact - there are regs in place for wing end plates to manage this risk. I don't see that the new winglets are anywhere near the 10mm and radiussed (hope I got that right), surely they must represent a risk?

modbaraban
modbaraban
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Location: Kyiv, Ukraine

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I'm really sorry to appear in position to defend Ferrari, but why won't you prove thy're wrong (illegal) instead of repeating that they are?
RH1300S wrote:Why don't people look back at the regs and ask the question - "why were faired wheels banned/not allowed in the first place" - then ask the question "are these (& others) just the same thing by a different name?"
Different name means that you have to look in a different chapter of regulations :wink: If these have less to do with braking system than the general aero, well prove they are not a part of the braking system! It can't good or bad. It must be either legal or not.

manchild
manchild
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modbaraban wrote:Different name means that you have to look in a different chapter of regulations :wink: If these have less to do with braking system than the general aero, well prove they are not a part of the braking system! It can't good or bad. It must be either legal or not.
FIA technical regulations are not dealing with definitions but with dimensions, materials and dynamic of car elements.

1. Regulations clearly say that wheel rim must be made in one piece of metal, metal alloy - fairing is made of non-metalic material.

2. Bodywork can't exceed 1400mm - winglets are spanned at least 1700 if not whole 1800.*

3. Regulations say that aero parts must be 10 mm thick and rounded to prevent tyre damage - fairings are much thinner and very sharp.

4. Regulations say that all elements influencing aero must be firmly attached - winglets and fairing itself are moving in 3 dimensions (together with wheel).

It would be like having front or rear wing linked to steering so they change angle and position depending if car is turning left or right.

* I really don't believe that Ferrari has reduced front axle span in order to fit fairing and winglets in 1800mm of overall car width. No team would sacrifice 20-30 mm of front wheels span in order to fit winglet UNLESS winglet is increasing car's performance more than pure wider tyre span would BUT if that is so than again winglets are not part of the braking system but pure aero device.

I've mentioned already that what Ferrai is doing and FIA allowing is an insult to former engineers because fairings were used in many series decades ago but not in F1 because that was and still is illegal according to regulations. If that was legal Colin Chapman would used it in the first place, not to mention other great engineers.

FIA - Group C, quarter of a century ago. Now tell me that F1 engineers of that time were dumb and that Gr. C engineers were smart. No, they've both respected regulations and FIA officials didn't interpret them by reading regulations trough red glasses.

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Last edited by manchild on 06 Aug 2007, 16:11, edited 2 times in total.

modbaraban
modbaraban
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Location: Kyiv, Ukraine

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manchild wrote:winglets are not part of the braking system but pure aero device.
Well, great, that's exactly what's left to prove :wink:
manchild wrote:FIA technical regulations are not dealing with definitions but with dimensions, materials and dynamic of car elements.[/img]
Article 1

PS: about sharpnes: the fins are internal, how would they damage other cars' tires?
Last edited by modbaraban on 06 Aug 2007, 16:14, edited 1 time in total.

manchild
manchild
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modbaraban wrote:
manchild wrote:winglets are not part of the braking system but pure aero device.
Well, great, that's exactly what's left to prove :wink:

PS: about sharpnes: the fins are internal, how would they damage other cars' tires?
There's nothing left to prove - winglets are outside of dimensions and shape criteria. No explanation can give them alibi for not responding to regulations.

Check development blog. In Hungary they've used external winglets.

http://www.f1technical.net/development/101

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That's not just knife sharp but also wider than the rim (whole fairing is).

modbaraban
modbaraban
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Joined: 05 Apr 2007, 17:44
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Sorry I failed to notice the exetrnal one. Well if it's oustide 1800 it's deffinitely illegal. Not much to discuss about that.
*awaiting RD's protests (or hints :lol: )*

About shrpness:
manchild wrote:3. Regulations say that aero parts must be 10 mm thick and rounded to prevent tyre damage - fairings are much thinner and very sharp.
...if it's an aero part.

PS: I edited by prev. post about definitions.