Montezemolo still banging on about third cars

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timbo
timbo
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Re: Montezemolo still banging on about third cars

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WhiteBlue wrote:
timbo wrote:Make customers cars not earn points for CC.
Dead simple.
Read the argument from GP.com.
Not a problem.
Say a big team gets #1 and #2 and the customer gets #3 and #4. As it does not get points, the next team in order gets them, so #5 gets as much points as #3 would worth, but only in CC.

Also, customer cars may be handicapped.

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Montezemolo still banging on about third cars

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timbo wrote:
WhiteBlue wrote:
timbo wrote:Make customers cars not earn points for CC.
Dead simple.
Read the argument from GP.com.
Not a problem.
Say a big team gets #1 and #2 and the customer gets #3 and #4. As it does not get points, the next team in order gets them, so #5 gets as much points as #3 would worth, but only in CC.

Also, customer cars may be handicapped.
A complicated thing that will not attract customers. Also the 2009-2012 concord is now in place and forbids the practice. Finally Williams would go on the war path again, this time supported by four other private teams.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

andrew
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Re: Montezemolo still banging on about third cars

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I don't think it would be too complicated. The big teams hire out a car to a smaller team but the car is not eligable for constructors points.

aral
aral
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Joined: 03 Apr 2010, 22:49

Re: Montezemolo still banging on about third cars

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WhiteBlue wrote:
timbo wrote:[quote="WhiteBlueDead simple.
Read the argument from GP.com.
Not a problem.
Say a big team gets #1 and #2 and the customer gets #3 and #4. As it does not get points, the next team in order gets them, so #5 gets as much points as #3 would worth, but only in CC.

Also, customer cars may be handicapped.[/quote]

A complicated thing that will not attract customers. Also the 2009-2012 concord is now in place and forbids the practice. Finally Williams would go on the war path again, this time supported by four other private teams.[/quote]

The concorde agreement is to do with distribution of money, and not the basic rules, which are still in a state of flux. Why, KERS still hasn't been decided on, despite being in the rules. So there is no reason why a satellite team could be admitted. That was even under consideration for this season. Constructor points could be amended to read "team points", so you could have " Marlboro Ferrari" and also "NART (Ferrari)" racing for seperate team points.

vall
vall
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Joined: 04 Nov 2008, 21:31

Re: Montezemolo still banging on about third cars

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timbo wrote:
WhiteBlue wrote:
timbo wrote:Make customers cars not earn points for CC.
Dead simple.
Read the argument from GP.com.
Not a problem.
Say a big team gets #1 and #2 and the customer gets #3 and #4. As it does not get points, the next team in order gets them, so #5 gets as much points as #3 would worth, but only in CC.

Also, customer cars may be handicapped.
you can't be serious!!!! If the customer cars that got #3 and #4 were not there, #5 could challenge and eventually overtake #1 and/or #2 to score a win@ With #3 & #4 along the way, this will be much harder, if possible at all.

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Montezemolo still banging on about third cars

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gilgen wrote:The concorde agreement is to do with distribution of money, and not the basic rules, which are still in a state of flux. Why, KERS still hasn't been decided on, despite being in the rules. So there is no reason why a satellite team could be admitted. That was even under consideration for this season. Constructor points could be amended to read "team points", so you could have " Marlboro Ferrari" and also "NART (Ferrari)" racing for seperate team points.
There are better informed people who can tell you that the concord agreement indeed deals with such basic things as "third" cars, "customer" cars, "constructors" and the like. Those are very important things to the signatories of the concord.

Besides the "two car" rule is also engraved in the sporting regulation and will not be lifted. Anybody with a cursory knowledge of F1 history will confirm this. Luca has the majority of the teams, the FiA and Bernie shoulder to shoulder standing against him. The discussion about this issue it is completely ludicrous and nobody understands his whinging.

Red Bull has fought the FiA, the teams and FOM for years to be able to run a "customer" team. They finally had to give in to the powers of F1. I have taken the quotes from the two top men at STR from Joe Saward's blog. Does anybody doubt these men would go through the exercise of designing their own car if Newey designed customer cars would be in their reach?
Franz Tost wrote: This is a landmark year for Scuderia Toro Rosso as the new regulations demand that we go it alone in terms of designing and building our car in-house. After four years of working in collaboration with Red Bull Technology, the STR5 is the first car that is 100% down to our own endeavours. Creating the necessary infrastructure to tackle this task has been our biggest challenge, possibly more difficult than actually producing the car itself. We have taken on an additional 80 staff and expanded our facility to accommodate them, including a machine Shop to increase our production capacity. In addition, we have commissioned a wind tunnel in Bicester, England, which we bought from Red Bull. It will take time for the highly skilled team we have assembled to learn to work together as efficiently as possible.
Giorgio Ascanelli wrote:By the end of last year, we had already increased our staff to around 150 and now we have 200. At the end of March 2009, we got the green light as to what actually constituted being an F1 constructor. That was the starting point for building up our operation in such a way that we could actually design a car that was achievable in engineering terms, working in a different way to the methods we had adopted in the past. Being recognised as a constructor involves owning the intellectual property rights to what are defined as the listed parts: these are effectively the monocoque, the safety structures that are subject to homologation and crash testing, which means the rear and front structures, primary and secondary roll-over structures and the complete aerodynamic package, the suspension, fuel and cooling systems.

Before even thinking about producing a car, we had to acquire the right tools to carry out these tasks and also hire the people who are to use these structures. Finding 50 people and putting them in an environment where they can do their job has been a tough task.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

Giblet
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Re: Montezemolo still banging on about third cars

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There are not enough pit stalls to support the idea at the majority of tracks. This most basic point basically moors most other arguments.
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute

andrew
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Re: Montezemolo still banging on about third cars

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Could have the same number of teams but with one car being supplied by a major team.

Giblet
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Re: Montezemolo still banging on about third cars

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So not a 3rd car then?

It's just too convoluted. If you are no longer talking about third cars, which there is no room for in the pits, then it is customer cars.

With a newly limited staff next year, why would, say, non cash-strapped Mclaren want to saddle resources into making sure they have an extra car ready to go for another team?

What's the incentive?
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Montezemolo still banging on about third cars

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Giblet wrote:What's the incentive?
Very good question! Always follow the money! This is another quote from a very good and fundamental write up from 2007 by Joe Saward.
Joe Saward wrote:The independent teams will be pushed down the grid, will be unable to score decent results and thus generate income. They will either have to go out of business, sell or merge their operations.

The downside of these four-car teams is that the sport will become even more reliant on those involved and thus more vulnerable if they depart. If two manufacturers decide one day to shut down their F1 operations - and one cannot rule this out, even if there are contracts involved - the grid would be cut by a third overnight and the likelihood of finding a rescuer such as Red Bull to come in and save the day is small indeed.

The other point is that with fewer voices there may be less politics but, at the same time, the sport will become more dependent on the manufacturers. Ultimately this will result in the reduction of the money being taken out of the sport by the commercial rights holder because when it comes to negotiations there will be no smaller teams to form an alternative series and thus the commercial rights holder will be in weaker negotiating position.
Because there is virtually no realistic chance for third (or fourth) cars there must be a very strong reason for Luca to pursue this course of action consistently. Money certainly would be an issue worth launching a strong lobby campaign. Ferrari must aim to throw out or dominate most small teams from F1 by 2012 when the Concord runs out. It is the declared objective to increase the FOM pay out to the teams from 50% to 85%. Not only would a reduction in team numbers create more income for Ferrari but it would also increase the negotiating power.

FiA, FOM and the private teams know that and they will not risk their power base by giving in to Ferrari on that issue.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

autogyro
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Re: Montezemolo still banging on about third cars

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Montezemolo can bang on about what ever he feels like, few people take any notice of him any more. His time is limited.

andrew
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Re: Montezemolo still banging on about third cars

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He speaks sense though. The new teams are slower than the leading GP2 cars which is a joke and does not show them in a good light.

Scotracer
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Re: Montezemolo still banging on about third cars

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andrew wrote:He speaks sense though. The new teams are slower than the leading GP2 cars which is a joke and does not show them in a good light.
They aren't slower than GP2 cars now. By Silverstone the new teams will be quite a bit quicker than the fastest GP2 car.
Powertrain Cooling Engineer

andrew
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Re: Montezemolo still banging on about third cars

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We'll see....

Hopefully they have sped up a bit.

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ISLAMATRON
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Joined: 01 Oct 2008, 18:29

Re: Montezemolo still banging on about third cars

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What the hell are you guys going on about? Chandock was slowest in Q1 at 1:19.559(a full second off his teammate) while GP2 qual was in the wet and their fastest lap of the weekend was 1:21.8

How do you guys let that Luca idiot fill your head with all that bs?