Bahrain GP situation: postponed, reinstated, cancelled

[WhiteBlue]

That's all wonderful and nice, but what is the guarantee that it will actually happen?

Real life has no guarantees except that it will end at some time. On the other hand self determination, civil rights and democracy had a good run in the last 60 years. So I guess we should let the Bahrainis do their thing and support what we feel is right.

And most importantly of all what has that got to do with F1 and where we race?

I thought that was self explanatory. We should not race in places where the revolutionaries tell us they will stop the race and where the police experts tell us they cannot stop them to do just that.

[myurr]

That's all wonderful and nice, but what is the guarantee that it will actually happen?

Real life has no guarantees except that it will end at some time. On the other hand self determination, civil rights and democracy had a good run in the last 60 years. So I guess we should let the Bahrainis do their thing and support what we feel is right.

In which Shiite ruled countries has it had a good run? There have been plenty of changes in regimes where the replacements have ended up being worse than the regimes they replaced. You still ignore what has happened on the ground in other Arab spring countries, and the human rights records (amongst other undesirable aspects) in Shiite ruled countries isn't exactly what you would call 'good'. Would you support a Shiite uprising openly calling for Sharia law for example, or democracy if it led to that outcome and subsequent removal of voting rights for women? It's a messy and complicated subject with no clear cut answers.

And most importantly of all what has that got to do with F1 and where we race?

I thought that was self explanatory. We should not race in places where the revolutionaries tell us they will stop the race and where the police experts tell us they cannot stop them to do just that.

And in my view we should no more give in to threats of violence from revolutionaries than we should terrorists or kidnappers; and that F1 should have nothing to do one way or the other with calls for regime change.

[Shrieker]

On the other hand selfishness, civil rights abuses and hypocrisy had a good run in the last 60 years.

There, fixed. My pleasure, as always.

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It was originally myurr's. No personal attack intended. Just some perspective.

[WhiteBlue]

In which Shiite ruled countries has it had a good run? There have been plenty of changes in regimes where the replacements have ended up being worse than the regimes they replaced.

I'm not discriminating by religious belief. Wether Shia, Sunni or Jewish those people have a right to determine their own destiny.

You still ignore what has happened on the ground in other Arab spring countries, and the human rights records (amongst other undesirable aspects) in Shiite ruled countries isn't exactly what you would call 'good'.

Democracy didn't have a good track record in Germany in 1945. Nevertheless the Americans gave us a chance to have a real go at it. The Russians thought we couldn't handle it and gave us the another dictatorial system. We know the outcome.

Would you support a Shiite uprising openly calling for Sharia law for example, or democracy if it led to that outcome and subsequent removal of voting rights for women? It's a messy and complicated subject with no clear cut answers.

I think the Bahrainis can handle it without making the mistake of creating a theocracy. Their country does not historically lean towards such a solution. The Pearl charter for instance calls for separation of powers. This is not the case in a theocracy.

We are getting away from our focal points and I'm getting the impression that we are pushing the envelope of the F1technical scope here. I don't want to go more off topic here. So let us leave it at that.

[mx_tifoso]

...

We are getting away from our focal points and I'm getting the impression that we are pushing the envelope of the F1technical scope here. I don't want to go more off topic here. So let us leave it at that.

[xpensive]

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We are getting away from our focal points and I'm getting the impression that we are pushing the envelope of the F1technical scope here. I don't want to go more off topic here. So let us leave it at that.

Oh, but I find this discussion most inspiring, why it should continue until a moderator says otherwise.

[myurr]

@WhiteBlue - the point I was trying to make is that it isn't as straight forward as you make out. I personally believe that democracy and self determination are great powers of good and that they should be encouraged wherever possible. I can also see that the west has a particularly poor track record when imposing or even just supporting these values. I cite Iraq as a recent example of where we have got this very wrong, despite the fact that Sadam Hussain was a truly evil man who needed to be removed. Self determination and democracy hasn't brought peace and unity to that country and the various branches of religion in that country seem unable or unwilling to live together in peace. I state that as an armchair observer reliant on news reports so I am happy to be proven wrong.

I also worry about the value of democracy in regions where cultural beliefs impose restrictions on subsets of their people, such as the restriction of voting rights and education for women. Again I have no idea if this is something that would happen in Bahrain, but if the west were to support regime change then we need to find ways to protect all the people of the country not just allow the majority to impose their ideology. It's a conflicted position but it would be ludicrously naive to believe there is a clear cut answer or solution.

We also haven't seen widespread support for regime change in these latest protests. The reports have been about a dozens of people not tens or hundreds of thousands. So how do we know what the majority would support, or even that the majority would back the Pearl charter? Would you still support the uprising if the majority supported the implementation of Sharia law?

My final point still stands that none of the above should have anything to do with F1 beyond security considerations, and that the threat of violence by a small collection of revolutionaries should no more dictate where we race than if there was a specific terrorist or kidknapping threat. We still race in Brazil despite the local criminal problems, for example, and we race in China and India despite the human rights abuses, and we race in the USA and the UK despite large parts of the world being against their foreign policy, etc.

[MIKEY_!]

The race needs to be canceled because they can have all the security they want at the track but it won't stop some hardline nutter firing an RPG onto the track/stands/pits. The feeling against this race seems to be getting ever more aggressive and violent. I hope this (or something similar) does not happen. IIRC the Dakar rally moved continents because someone threatened to blow it up. Politics wasn't the primary concern, safety was. Politics of going/not going is no longer the main concern, the safety of teams and fans is.

[mx_tifoso]

Comparing a rally that is thousands of miles long across natural landscapes does not make the security point apply in the same manner to F1. This race will be in an enclosed property and for the most part most of the time is spent at the circuit, aside from the night when the teams are at heavily secured hotels. I think it's fine. Race time....

[xpensive]

...
My final point still stands that none of the above should have anything to do with F1 beyond security considerations, and that the threat of violence by a small collection of revolutionaries should no more dictate where we race than if there was a specific terrorist or kidknapping threat. We still race in Brazil despite the local criminal problems, for example, and we race in China and India despite the human rights abuses, and we race in the USA and the UK despite large parts of the world being against their foreign policy, etc.

This is a very good point, there is no way that F1 could set any ethical or moral standards whatsoever, with its bizarre focus on money and glitz shown off in countries with living standard at a dollar a day.

Having said that, I think that this might be something to prepare for futurewise, when the world is not going backwards in that respect. Au contraire, the IOC has a defined agenda pointing in the direction of supporting democracy and human rights.

[MIKEY_!]

Comparing a rally that is thousands of miles long across natural landscapes does not make the security point apply in the same manner to F1. This race will be in an enclosed property and for the most part most of the time is spent at the circuit, aside from the night when the teams are at heavily secured hotels. I think it's fine. Race time....

Enclosed property won't stop a rocket propelled grenade.

[strad]

Apparently they don't care who gets caught in the crossfire...

Security forces fired stun grenades Wednesday at anti-government protesters who swarmed into a cultural exhibition for Bahrain's Formula One race, setting off street battles and sending visitors fleeing for cover.

It was a blow to the Gulf nation's efforts to project stability, returning to the Grand Prix circuit a year after the race was canceled because of unrest.

The demonstration was the most direct attempt by protesters to bring their demands into events linked to Sunday's race, Bahrain's top international showcase. The resumption of the top-level auto race is being touted by Bahrain's rulers as a sign they have the upper hand after 14 months of clashes and crackdowns.

[strad]

EEK...it's getting worse...I wonder whether there will be an F1 race...

In the meantime, the MRS team from the supporting Porsche Supercup, has withdrawn from the race, and in a statement the team boss Karsten Molitor said:

“It is the first time in our team history that we have had to cancel a race of the Porsche MOBIL1 Supercup,” Molitor said. “In the end we have the responsibility for our employees.

“The race in Bahrain is for us one of the season highlights, therefore it was not an easy to come to a decision. According to our drivers and partners we have reached the conclusion to start only at the second race in Barcelona.”

[mx_tifoso]

Would you care to share your sources Strad??

If you post something that is written by others, please be kind enough to share the source... always.

[myurr]

Apparently they don't care who gets caught in the crossfire...

Security forces fired stun grenades Wednesday at anti-government protesters who swarmed into a cultural exhibition for Bahrain's Formula One race, setting off street battles and sending visitors fleeing for cover.

It was a blow to the Gulf nation's efforts to project stability, returning to the Grand Prix circuit a year after the race was canceled because of unrest.

The demonstration was the most direct attempt by protesters to bring their demands into events linked to Sunday's race, Bahrain's top international showcase. The resumption of the top-level auto race is being touted by Bahrain's rulers as a sign they have the upper hand after 14 months of clashes and crackdowns.

If that is true. That information was posted by another member in two stories, neither of which included any photo's at all and which only featured information and quotes from the revolutionaries. One of the articles also followed up with an incredibly biased story about the wife of a revolutionary hunger striker blaming the royals for her husbands deteriorating health when he was the one refusing to eat, drink or have an intravenous drip.

In any modern conflict both sides produce propaganda, and supporting one side or the other does not make their propaganda truthful.