2025 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[f1isgood]

I am not sure why there's skepticism with Merc upgrades. They are actually the only team to be consistently be up there barring Jeddah (which seems more like an outlier) and were also very good at Bahrain. Merc are good

[AR3-GP]

They also historically upgrade well. Their problem in the last couple of years has been that the launch car puts them in a big hole to dig out of. They started this year much closer to the front than usual.

[SB15]

If Merc upgrades are focused on the tyres, they will open a world of possibilities this season because extracting as much heat as possible from the brake hub will benefit them a lot.

[Farnborough]

I am not sure why there's skepticism with Merc upgrades. They are actually the only team to be consistently be up there barring Jeddah (which seems more like an outlier) and were also very good at Bahrain. Merc are good

Its fair to say they were quite lost within these regulations, ultimately with many false paths followed.

Interesting in we can now see the timeline of change since JA returned to front line decision making. Things like this are never instant, taking time to evaluate and convince, guide, encourage the mass of engineers etc to follow along this route. Important that each believe that they are integral part in making valued contribution, that starts to bring confidence up, calms debate, promotes more targeted decision making to form a more homogeneous output.

I feel that truly shows this season, with far more linear delivery and performance.

[f1isgood]

I am not sure why there's skepticism with Merc upgrades. They are actually the only team to be consistently be up there barring Jeddah (which seems more like an outlier) and were also very good at Bahrain. Merc are good

Its fair to say they were quite lost within these regulations, ultimately with many false paths followed.

Interesting in we can now see the timeline of change since JA returned to front line decision making. Things like this are never instant, taking time to evaluate and convince, guide, encourage the mass of engineers etc to follow along this route. Important that each believe that they are integral part in making valued contribution, that starts to bring confidence up, calms debate, promotes more targeted decision making to form a more homogeneous output.

I feel that truly shows this season, with far more linear delivery and performance.

Excellent summary.

[Matt2725]

The fact they've not rushed large aero upgrades early on suggests confidence within the team.

At least one other team appears to be flailing already with which direction to go based on the commentary I've seen. So the calmness should be reassuring.

[venkyhere]

It really puts a different perspective on things. The narrative of bad Mercedes cars. After steering the car to Hamilton in 2023 (and potentially limiting its potential as a result) , they didn’t win any races. When Russell was comfortable in the car in 2022 and 2024, they won races.

Which is a shame, because that would indicate Lewis is 100% dependent on the car being a certain performance window in order for him to perform well. I don't want to do this Lewis Hamilton performance debate, but it still looks like it still the case for him at Ferrari. I guess it could be how these new tyres are designed and operated, how stiff these suspension are, or could be how these new cars drives/transfers its weight during many corners.

I've voiced this before about just how fundamental the changes are in going to the 18 inch size. Prior to the change, engineering perspective was that they may match the previous size (13 inch) for absolute performance, but in a much narrowed band of technical sphere.
The 13's covered a multitude of error, all,of which now is forced to be accommodated in how the suspension works to control various aspect.
LH (no I'm not going to make comparison with GR here, he's left the team ) seemed to excel on those 13's but for me his history on these 18's is far more open to question. This IS relevant to MB in answering that development perception in prior posts.
The F2 incomers were a year ahead onto 18's (think that's correct) and we see those arriving now into F1. This and the prevalence of SIM interest just appears to equip them with more natural store of reactions around driving these tyres. As in, what's in their personal reaction "library" to various fast respone needed situations.

Danny Ric I'd put in the same boat in regard to 18's too.

The suspension engineers I too belive have in some teams underestimated their own part in just how this csn be approached.

I've described before as more "faith than feel" scenario of driving, with some of these demands quite detached from previous store of built up experience.

Antonelli appears to have arrived at a very decent level in this aspect. Skilled it seems anyway, but certainly not needing to make substantial adaptation to be competitive.

Edit:- for the avoidance of doubt .... for errors i mean technical errors in suspension application, alignment, purity of understanding and attention to just how precisely the tyre has to be placed to reach it's absolute peak performance envelope. Not driver error, there's just much more elasticity in the 13's to blot out error at extreme of performance.

I remember discussing the same with you earlier in some other thread. Sorry if it's bad memory and I'm mistaken. The need for a stable 'platform' (which in turn is imposed by the floor tunnels) in the GE era, poses restructions on how much the tyres can flex longitudinally (pitch) and laterally (roll, slide, yaw) , which I believe, is the root cause behind the switch from 13" to 18" - to have smaller sidewall.

Which in turn means the tyre is less 'spring' and more 'bricky' ; which in turns means the suspension game is more complex than before, asking the damping difference required between compression and rebound to be more severe in this era, compared to pre-2021 (talking only from a mechanical perspective, not including aero loads).

By it's inherent nature, the GE car has less mechanical grip => car will slide more (under/over steer as the case may be) in lower speed corners. Even in medium/high speed corners with more aero grip, the loading/unloading difference across and axle and between axles, has to be far more precise than pre-2021 because the floor doesn't like geometrical orientation changes relative to road.

In effect, there is a double whammy :
a) less mechanical grip inherently due to baseline more stiff suspension and baseline more stiff tyres
b) highly sensitive aero grip because weight shift longitudinally and laterally is disliked by the car's floor tunnel

This means a lot of 'unlearning' w.r.t pre-2021 era for non-newbie drivers, and I think this is where some drivers are getting caught out.

[Chuckjr]

"arguing the team is now more stable and development-focused with Russell and Antonelli, no longer constrained by Hamilton’s struggles with ground-effect cars"

Thats very damning. Wow.

[SB15]

Which is a shame, because that would indicate Lewis is 100% dependent on the car being a certain performance window in order for him to perform well. I don't want to do this Lewis Hamilton performance debate, but it still looks like it still the case for him at Ferrari. I guess it could be how these new tyres are designed and operated, how stiff these suspension are, or could be how these new cars drives/transfers its weight during many corners.

I've voiced this before about just how fundamental the changes are in going to the 18 inch size. Prior to the change, engineering perspective was that they may match the previous size (13 inch) for absolute performance, but in a much narrowed band of technical sphere.
The 13's covered a multitude of error, all,of which now is forced to be accommodated in how the suspension works to control various aspect.
LH (no I'm not going to make comparison with GR here, he's left the team ) seemed to excel on those 13's but for me his history on these 18's is far more open to question. This IS relevant to MB in answering that development perception in prior posts.
The F2 incomers were a year ahead onto 18's (think that's correct) and we see those arriving now into F1. This and the prevalence of SIM interest just appears to equip them with more natural store of reactions around driving these tyres. As in, what's in their personal reaction "library" to various fast respone needed situations.

Danny Ric I'd put in the same boat in regard to 18's too.

The suspension engineers I too belive have in some teams underestimated their own part in just how this csn be approached.

I've described before as more "faith than feel" scenario of driving, with some of these demands quite detached from previous store of built up experience.

Antonelli appears to have arrived at a very decent level in this aspect. Skilled it seems anyway, but certainly not needing to make substantial adaptation to be competitive.

Edit:- for the avoidance of doubt .... for errors i mean technical errors in suspension application, alignment, purity of understanding and attention to just how precisely the tyre has to be placed to reach it's absolute peak performance envelope. Not driver error, there's just much more elasticity in the 13's to blot out error at extreme of performance.

I remember discussing the same with you earlier in some other thread. Sorry if it's bad memory and I'm mistaken. The need for a stable 'platform' (which in turn is imposed by the floor tunnels) in the GE era, poses restructions on how much the tyres can flex longitudinally (pitch) and laterally (roll, slide, yaw) , which I believe, is the root cause behind the switch from 13" to 18" - to have smaller sidewall.

Which in turn means the tyre is less 'spring' and more 'bricky' ; which in turns means the suspension game is more complex than before, asking the damping difference required between compression and rebound to be more severe in this era, compared to pre-2021 (talking only from a mechanical perspective, not including aero loads).

By it's inherent nature, the GE car has less mechanical grip => car will slide more (under/over steer as the case may be) in lower speed corners. Even in medium/high speed corners with more aero grip, the loading/unloading difference across and axle and between axles, has to be far more precise than pre-2021 because the floor doesn't like geometrical orientation changes relative to road.

In effect, there is a double whammy :
a) less mechanical grip inherently due to baseline more stiff suspension and baseline more stiff tyres
b) highly sensitive aero grip because weight shift longitudinally and laterally is disliked by the car's floor tunnel

This means a lot of 'unlearning' w.r.t pre-2021 era for non-newbie drivers, and I think this is where some drivers are getting caught out.

Max is the best of anyone right now who can extract the most out these current regulation of car because the way these tyres are designed require a driving style where it doesn't overheat the surface of the tyre and him setting the tyres in a window allows him to get the most of the car.

The Only other person who I have seen at times here and there who can extract the most of the tyres, once set in a performative window, is George.

Really, call it a massive coincidence, but I think these GE cars prefers an "On the nose" driving style because it puts less strain on the tyres (especially on the front) over a lap and race distance vs an understeery one.

[Farnborough]

One of the requirement is to present the tread surface "square" to the track surface, notice just how little static camber they run now, this with attendant geometry of movement calling for very deep analytical stance in delivering accuracy. It certainly appears to be key driver in available traction for rear tyre and all while aiming to conserve the rubber by avoiding more extreme locally loading to spread this performance over more laps.

Unrelated to MB, both FA and NH in driving WEC cars extensively I believe were acquiring more skills on this whole era of tyre and how they can deploy /adapt skills to be a little ahead of the curve.

Antonelli with his experience on larger rins outside F1 seems to have had opportunity in that sphere too.

[F1Krof]

"arguing the team is now more stable and development-focused with Russell and Antonelli, no longer constrained by Hamilton’s struggles with ground-effect cars"

Thats very damning. Wow.

When was Gary ever right?

[DGP123]

"arguing the team is now more stable and development-focused with Russell and Antonelli, no longer constrained by Hamilton’s struggles with ground-effect cars"

Thats very damning. Wow.

When was Gary ever right?

They’ve benefitted from a better understanding of the reg, and being in the fourth year of a reg. Nothing to do with the departure of Lewis, but name dropped for added clicks/views, which is standard nowadays for any pundit or analyst working in the game.

They might have a better overall car, but have never once looked likely to win a race this season.

[Tonino]

Spot on. The best thing that’s happened to this team since 2021 is Lewis Hamilton moving on.

[Lasssept]

[Matt2725]

Spot on. The best thing that’s happened to this team since 2021 is Lewis Hamilton moving on.

I wouldn't quite put it that way. But it probably freed up development direction in a sense that they're not putting all that effort trying to improve driveability for one driver rather than look for performance, because the other driver is driving whatever is put in front of him as best as he can.